1972 - 2010

[garfield]

I guess i have to say this again, too: THE EXCELLENCE is what makes Drum Corps Drum Corps. As long as the DCI "owners" continue the marching aspect, and the schedule aspect, there will be creative people writing for it, and talented people marching it. The musical aspect can--and will--change. There WILL BE woodwinds someday, and it will survive. The "single issue" dinos will stop going, and they'll be replaced one-by-one with younger people of wider view. When the quitter-dinos see that it's as popular as ever, and see that woodwinds didn't cause drum corps to get "any softer" (and add colors that might make it more interesting to the rest of the world), they'll be back too.

For drum corps to die, the marching aspect or the schedule will have to change.

Year-round school might kill it. (greatly reduce the number of potential members; schedule changes)

Schools unwilling to let corps stay there might kill it. (this would cause the schedule to change)

Anything that limits the schedule, will cause excellence to suffer, which will then cause drum corps to not be drum corps anymore.

If you limit the marching aspect (by rewarding props such as chairs, mirrors, etc...anything that simplifies/limits the amount of marching, no matter how "hot" the rest might be), you're on your way to killing the activity, because the marching aspect is being reduced. After all, there's nothing on the sheets that says "Thou shalt march [this way] for [this many] minutes." And no one's better at doing as little as possible, and meeting sheet criterion than BD. But their performance can't be beat, right?

Last night, at choir practice, a lifelong fan of DCI told me that he got on the phone with DCI as soon as tickets went on sale. He was proud to get 40 yrd line seats, 15 rows from the bottom. I said "I hope you don't mind the sound of the electronics."

He replied: "Listening to BD's 2010 encore, standing still, was more than worth it." The marching aspect is not important to him.

TOC (don't call it G8!) is promoting the lot, the extra music, the other parts of drum corps. They must think the musical aspect is very important. Are they promoting experimental drill? New moves? 3-dimensional drill? Anything new on drill?

No.

Soooo....I claim that the REDUCTION of the marching aspect (the anti-Zingali), and/or the limiting of the schedule is more likely to destroy the meaning of drum corps (ie, "Excellence" is reduced.) If that starts happening, indoor marching circuits (like Japan) will start taking over. But we'll need more facilities. Frankly, I can't stand listening to percussion indoors, so I'll be done. But it will probably be excellent, as long as the indoor corps rehearse as much as the current outdoor ones do.

I can't tell, Bruckner, if you're the one to love or the one to hate (metaphorically speaking, of course).

The "single-issue dinos", as you refer to them, are not single issue at all. If they were they'd have been gone long ago. Today's "dinos" have stood by the activity through many changes. That some will leave IF woodwinds are allowed (and I disagree with both that they will be allowed AND that the activity will survive if they are) doesn't make them "single-issue" at all. Don't begrudge those who aren't as accepting as you are with connotations of negativity, and don't presume that they will come back even if WW are allowed (most won't, IMO) because, for them, there will be no reason to come back. It will be marching band even if it is "excellent" marching band.

If it was limiting marching that was to kill the activity it would have been dead long ago, when corps stopped "marching" and instead started "jazz-running" and "scattering" to the next "set". You're a dino like me and many here, and you know 8-to-5 died long ago with "stride step" and "ankle-knee". Your friend who wanted to sit on the 15 and didn't mind the blaring speakers also didn't care about the marching. He cared about the stand-still encore, just as so many care about "The Lot"; the encore is the same as the lot except it's got horns and it's on the field. If marching were so important the lot wouldn't be so "hot" as it is (just as Ream said, it's about the flash and pizazz of standing still and cranking out the amazing stuff that doesn't get judged or even represent the quality of the on-field show. Your friend is what the TOC show is programming for, and it's apparently what the "public" of today - the plugged in, iPhone group - want in their entertainment.

Are you saying you know better than the Excellent corps directors - the only ones you'll pay to see - what's best for the future of the activity?

Eliminating the uniqueness of drum corps by turning it into summer marching band will kill the activity long before the schedule will. YOU may appreciate the "excellence" of the performance but the average public doesn't, and the average "summer marching band" parent doesn't either. They care about little Suzie or Johnny out on the field. They don't have the reference point of "excellence" like you (and I) do, and they'll tell Johnny and Suzie that they are "special" even if their band is crap and came in last in the "summer marching band extravaganza".

Yes, the scheduling and housing and summer school issues you list can cause problems but I guarantee that there are options besides hotels for the lack of school housing (look here: http://www.royalrestrooms.com/Showertrailers.html). But if the activity looks like summer marching band, and little Johnny or Suzie is just repeating what they did in the fall (in the eyes of Mom & Dad, or in the eyes of the MM according to Persona) there won't be an incentive to march, there won't be enough fans who care (because they saw it in the fall and can't tell the difference), and the designers/writers will make as much, or more, doing their thing for public schools despite their love of the "old, dino" drum corps they used to love.

The combination of ant-Zingali, woodwinds, and melding to look like fall band competitions is the sure path to death. One down already...(God rest his soul).

So much of what you write I agree with, but this focus on "only the excellent" has me .

(BTW, are you from Medina? I'm from Wellington, 20 miles west of there.)

[JimF-LowBari]

Now in all fairness... we (you and I) grew up in a time when you were supposed to get cuts and scrapes. In the words of the immortal Hank Hill, "We used to get cuts and burns when we were kids, That's how we learned things were sharp and hot!" Well it is not so much this way in today's world and I think people tend to over do it when they protect the MM's of today BUT...

"Go ahead... stick that fork in the outlet... yeah, hurt Hell didn't it.. ya ain't gonna do that again are ya" - Jeff Foxworthy.

Or more to topic: coming in last or not in the "elite" group didn't hurt as long as corps management was realistic about it. Hell we even enjoyed ourselves while taking our lumps for the good of the corps future.

[Big Bad Bari]

If you limit the marching aspect (by rewarding props such as chairs, mirrors, etc...anything that simplifies/limits the amount of marching, no matter how "hot" the rest might be), you're on your way to killing the activity, because the marching aspect is being reduced. After all, there's nothing on the sheets that says "Thou shalt march [this way] for [this many] minutes." And no one's better at doing as little as possible, and meeting sheet criterion than BD. But their performance can't be beat, right?

I stuck up for this guy? #### am I ashamed...

So what you are saying is that marching sometimes backwards through a minefield of props presents no problems? Trying to make a form move its way into a set of props with the accuracy that it takes for each "CHAIR" to end up with a butt in it takes no talent or effort? It is a watered down version? I think not... If you are guiding to the form instead of the field which arguably HAS to be the case for the form to be accurate, how then do you make that match up with the props that are ALWAYS set up in exactly the same place on the field without marching it perfectly each and every time? Hmmmmmm...

BD's official honk reporting for duty!

[Bruckner8]

I stuck up for this guy? #### am I ashamed...

So what you are saying is that marching sometimes backwards through a minefield of props presents no problems? Trying to make a form move its way into a set of props with the accuracy that it takes for each "CHAIR" to end up with a butt in it takes no talent or effort? It is a watered down version? I think not... If you are guiding to the form instead of the field which arguably HAS to be the case for the form to be accurate, how then do you make that match up with the props that are ALWAYS set up in exactly the same place on the field without marching it perfectly each and every time? Hmmmmmm...

BD's official honk reporting for duty!

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Every prop adds a point of reference, making it easier to clean. Let's take it to the Nth degree, by allowing any amount of small dots on the field, in any set, as long as it's possible to do within the setup period. Don't you think every drill cleaner would want to? I'm not putting BD down...I always defend their methods here, and tip my hat to their performance excellence and Wayne's writing excellence. They know better than anyone how to maximize the sheets. For that they should be commended.

But I'm not going to pretend. And you shouldn't either, homer or not.

[Bruckner8]

Thanks Garfield, for the comprehensive, point-by-point reply. I appreciate that you took the time to read what I said, think about it, and respond in kind. I'm in NE Ohio, half way between Cleveland and Erie along I-90. I'm only 15 minutes from you every Tuesday (Oberlin). We should hook up for dinner sometime!

The "single-issue dinos", as you refer to them, are not single issue at all.

Any dino that says "if DCI adds woodwinds, I'm done." is a single-issue dino BY DEFINITION. I'm not making a value judgment. I'm addressing a set of people {X:X is a dino, and has stated they'll quit going to shows if DCI adds woodwinds}

It's a set of people, nothing more, nothing less. I then confidently stated WWs were coming, and that the WW-hating dinos would probably come back. It's fine if you disagree with my confidence on both predictions, but it doesn't make me a "negative guy." The fact that OTHER ISSUES may exist in the minds and words of the WW-hating dinos, DOES NOT CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF THE SET as I used it. YOU changed the definition to suit your needs (by including "other issues"). All good, but I choose my words very carefully, and I'm very consistent/logical.

... for them, there will be no reason to come back. It will be marching band even if it is "excellent" marching band.

OK then, you have an issue with my entire hypothesis (that excellence defines drum corps, not necessarily instrumentation). NOW WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE. You're of the opinion (or defender of the WW-hating dinos) that the WWs will cause people to stop coming to shows (maybe catastrophically!), no matter how excellent. NO PROBLEM. We disagree, cool.

If it was limiting marching that was to kill the activity it would have been dead long ago, when corps stopped "marching" and instead started "jazz-running" and "scattering" to the next "set". You're a dino like me and many here, and you know 8-to-5 died long ago with "stride step" and "ankle-knee". Your friend who wanted to sit on the 15 and didn't mind the blaring speakers also didn't care about the marching. He cared about the stand-still encore, just as so many care about "The Lot"; the encore is the same as the lot except it's got horns and it's on the field. If marching were so important the lot wouldn't be so "hot" as it is (just as Ream said, it's about the flash and pizazz of standing still and cranking out the amazing stuff that doesn't get judged or even represent the quality of the on-field show. Your friend is what the TOC show is programming for, and it's apparently what the "public" of today - the plugged in, iPhone group - want in their entertainment.

Agree on all counts, except when I say "marching" I mean all movement. I'm not "so dino" that I use the term in the old M&M vernacular. Visual rehearsal time is still called "marching block," even today. But again, I think we agree here (and with Jeff), that this TOC aspect slowly takes away from the entire meaning of drum corps, no matter how excellent. I don't particularly care either, FWIW, because I tend to prefer the lot stuff to 99% of the shows anyway. I'd rather pay $50 to hear 4 TOC corps do a standstill than $12 to hear/see 8 random field shows. It might not be drum corps anymore, but it sure sounds AWESOME! (NOTE: I'm still assuming they're outdoors. I cannot stand listening to large percussion indoors. If there is ever an indoor standstill circuit, it had better use 1/3 of the percussion as corps use for outdoors! Call me a "single-issue dino" on this one! If they use full perc lines indoors, I'm done! :))

Are you saying you know better than the Excellent corps directors - the only ones you'll pay to see - what's best for the future of the activity?

I never said I was a protector of the activity. Drum Corps could disappear tomorrow, and all it would do for me is give me more free time, to fill up with one of the other 1000 things I like doing. It's a high priority, and I "love it," but life is too short to be putting "life or death" terms on it. I understand that it literally DRIVES some people, to the point that they cant imagine survival without it. Every institution needs those committed people. Obviously, I "care" enough to type about it here, but my involvement in DCP is more about exercises in logic, communication and entertainment than anything else.

The Detroit Symphony is on strike. So what? If the society deems Institution X useless, so what? It amounts to a small, short-term, blip-in-time bummer. The Universe will Traverse The Continuum with or without Institution X. Most of these Institutions (drum corps included) are lavish luxuries in the Big Picture.

YOU may appreciate the "excellence" of the performance but the average public doesn't,

The avg public doesn't know drum corps isn't already using woodwinds. Only us dinos, the protectors of the Holy Grail, do.

[Jeff Ream]

First green + I have ever given you... Your post shows your humanity in a very positive manner!

Now in all fairness... we (you and I) grew up in a time when you were supposed to get cuts and scrapes. In the words of the immortal Hank Hill, "We used to get cuts and burns when we were kids, That's how we learned things were sharp and hot!" Well it is not so much this way in today's world and I think people tend to over do it when they protect the MM's of today BUT...

As far as programming content, A & E, Woodwinds ETC... The darned kids have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! They are the same kids we were back in our time. I mean when there are as many NON GEEKY things to do other than drum corps out there these days, how can you not feel a kinship with the MM's of today?

however, when you criticize what the adults do, people on here tend to say you're attacking the kids.

some people cant have it both ways.

oh and Hank was a smart man. ( and a Cowboys fan)

[audiodb]

(NOTE: I'm still assuming they're outdoors. I cannot stand listening to large percussion indoors. If there is ever an indoor standstill circuit, it had better use 1/3 of the percussion as corps use for outdoors! Call me a "single-issue dino" on this one! If they use full perc lines indoors, I'm done! :))

Then why are you still here? Last time I checked, shows held at LOS, the Georgia Dome and the Alamodome actually did utilize the indoor space (no retracted roof, even).

[Bruckner8]

Then why are you still here? Last time I checked, shows held at LOS, the Georgia Dome and the Alamodome actually did utilize the indoor space (no retracted roof, even).

ANSWER:

Because I like to #####.

(I had a very well written set of real reasons, then I realized "it just doesn't matter." and handed the answer you had predetermined anyway.)

[audiodb]

Just shows that in real life, people don't fit neatly into those "single-issue dino" stereotypes, as some would like to imagine.

[garfield]

Thanks Garfield, for the comprehensive, point-by-point reply. I appreciate that you took the time to read what I said, think about it, and respond in kind. I'm in NE Ohio, half way between Cleveland and Erie along I-90. I'm only 15 minutes from you every Tuesday (Oberlin). We should hook up for dinner sometime!

Any dino that says "if DCI adds woodwinds, I'm done." is a single-issue dino BY DEFINITION. I'm not making a value judgment. I'm addressing a set of people {X:X is a dino, and has stated they'll quit going to shows if DCI adds woodwinds}

It's a set of people, nothing more, nothing less. I then confidently stated WWs were coming, and that the WW-hating dinos would probably come back. It's fine if you disagree with my confidence on both predictions, but it doesn't make me a "negative guy." The fact that OTHER ISSUES may exist in the minds and words of the WW-hating dinos, DOES NOT CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF THE SET as I used it. YOU changed the definition to suit your needs (by including "other issues"). All good, but I choose my words very carefully, and I'm very consistent/logical.

OK then, you have an issue with my entire hypothesis (that excellence defines drum corps, not necessarily instrumentation). NOW WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE. You're of the opinion (or defender of the WW-hating dinos) that the WWs will cause people to stop coming to shows (maybe catastrophically!), no matter how excellent. NO PROBLEM. We disagree, cool.

Agree on all counts, except when I say "marching" I mean all movement. I'm not "so dino" that I use the term in the old M&M vernacular. Visual rehearsal time is still called "marching block," even today. But again, I think we agree here (and with Jeff), that this TOC aspect slowly takes away from the entire meaning of drum corps, no matter how excellent. I don't particularly care either, FWIW, because I tend to prefer the lot stuff to 99% of the shows anyway. I'd rather pay $50 to hear 4 TOC corps do a standstill than $12 to hear/see 8 random field shows. It might not be drum corps anymore, but it sure sounds AWESOME! (NOTE: I'm still assuming they're outdoors. I cannot stand listening to large percussion indoors. If there is ever an indoor standstill circuit, it had better use 1/3 of the percussion as corps use for outdoors! Call me a "single-issue dino" on this one! If they use full perc lines indoors, I'm done! :))

I never said I was a protector of the activity. Drum Corps could disappear tomorrow, and all it would do for me is give me more free time, to fill up with one of the other 1000 things I like doing. It's a high priority, and I "love it," but life is too short to be putting "life or death" terms on it. I understand that it literally DRIVES some people, to the point that they cant imagine survival without it. Every institution needs those committed people. Obviously, I "care" enough to type about it here, but my involvement in DCP is more about exercises in logic, communication and entertainment than anything else.

The Detroit Symphony is on strike. So what? If the society deems Institution X useless, so what? It amounts to a small, short-term, blip-in-time bummer. The Universe will Traverse The Continuum with or without Institution X. Most of these Institutions (drum corps included) are lavish luxuries in the Big Picture.

The avg public doesn't know drum corps isn't already using woodwinds. Only us dinos, the protectors of the Holy Grail, do.

I'm FROM Wellington - grew up there - but live in Columbus now (you must be near Ashtabula). I spent many hours at the conservatory in Oberlin, and our band camps were there, too. I just get back now to visit when I can.

I don't view people, especially drum corps "artsy" people, as mono-issue, black or white people. They are generally much more intricate in their thinking, despite your careful logic. I sure don't appreciate being pigeon-holed as a single-issue person even though WW are my line in the sand. Maybe the NEXT issue is important enough to some people, but under your definition that next issue always classifies a person as a single-issue person. I disagree. As you say - all is good.

Unlike you, I don't have 1000 things I'm interested in. Certainly only a couple warrant the amount of time and money I devote to the drum corps activity. And in some ways I do consider myself a "protector" of the activity, and I'm confident that there are many like me who are willing to push, cajole, spend, nudge, and bi**h loud enough that the powers that be hear and, maybe, modify their direction. Call us deluded if you like, but you should also call us passionate about one thing, maybe instead of having thousands of things we like but about which we aren't passionate. Frankly, I'd rather have a few of the former instead a bunch of the latter. But it's all good.

Don't worry, it's all good, but you sound as though you are the definition of a "fair-weather" fan. Only interested if it's convenient and personally entertaining, without much consideration for the others that might be affected by the experience of the activity - namely the kids on the field. Forgive me, but if you were IMO, you'd be more willing to support those shows that don't specifically entertain you - like a show full of open class corps and corps that finish outside the top-5. That's OK, I'm sure you're not alone. But I doubt seriously that you and those like you will preserve the experience for the kids yet to join, or for the kids in the lower-finishing corps who can't or haven't tried out for the top-5. My passionate friends and I will do our best to make sure you have a constant supply of kids replacing the age-outs in the top-5 by supporting the corps that feed kids into those "winning" corps. When you do find a show that's convenient and entertaining you should say a special "Thank you" to me and my passionate friends.

If drum corps dies I will be crushed. I'll still breathe, and I'll still go to work, but I'll be distraught, to be sure. I'll care about those kids who never get to experience what drum corps does to a young kid. I'll wish that music kids, and not just sports kids, had a "higher goal" to reach for, one that let's them hear the roar of the crowd. One that teaches them what schools and parents and friends can't and don't. If it folds it's true, all will not be good for me.

I won't always be entertained by every show I see (ex: a "Top" corps in 2010), but I'll always recognize what the experience does for kid's souls. You may only attend shows to get the entertainment they give you; I'll attend because of what it gives to the kids on the field. It's part of my legacy as being a "legacy" fan. "Pass it forward", as someone said. Not "Pass it forward only if it entertains you" as seems to guide you.

But it's OK. All is good.