A question for the purists: was there more that could have been done?

[BrianL]

I think there will be a natural counterreaction if the activity has gone too far.  It would be great for a couple of old-school corps -- let's say two from among Phantom, Crossmen and Madison -- to announce that they will use only minimal amplification and props and to recruit members on that basis.  I think it would work and be a unique identity for those corps, and then let's see how the crowds and judges react.  I would vote with my pocketbook at the souvenir stand.  The Bluecoats made their identity with old-school corps tropes when they started making Finals, and the crowds ate it up.

I thought Bluecoats in 2016 was a legitimately great show which could have been altered to match the old rules and won DCI in any decade, although it would have certainly been pretty far out there in concept if you go back 20 years.  If the Cadets had done that show (without amps, but with the props) in 1994, it would have been a legendary show that changed DCI's trajectory forever.  And I think BD and Crown have been putting together some of the best brass lines in DCI history this decade.  So, I don't think it's all doom and gloom and irreparably damaged... but I will admit that there's nothing from this season that I will re-listen to much.

[Jeff Ream]

4 hours ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

I've got just enough percussion knowledge to know you're talking a lot of bollocks to fit your narrative.

Most vets have knee and back problems as well.  We going to sideline kids and sit them down in a concert arc to protect them from the dangers of the human body wearing out as they get older (which is EXACTLY what's going to happen as a result of all the gesticulating and rolling around)?  Is that your initiative?  Because you can't have one without the other.  It's just a load of hooey, and people with common sense already know that.

i'm not talking bollocks, I'm talking fact. And yes, my back has an issue or three from carrying various sized bass drums over the years. But I do know several former fron ensemble performers with wrist issues because of how they had to play to project to the top of a stadium over a brass line. It's the one thing DCI used t justify a change that was actually true.

 

I'm not advocating for crazy visual rolling and dancing. You keep trying to put words into my mouth I've at no time ever said. Here's your hint....learn about the person you're trying to speak for before you do it....you'll look a lot less foolish.

[Jeff Ream]

4 hours ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

Be advised Jeff, you're now on my ignore list.  I don't have time to bandy crooked words with trolling contrarians not interested in rational discourse.

my heart breaks. for fun, i hope others quote me quoting and ripping your arguments to shreds LOL

Edited August 15, 2017 by Jeff Ream
correction

[Jeff Ream]

4 hours ago, Bobby L. Collins said:

Oh I know about your group on Reddit, and what a CJ it is for amps and spandex.  I also know that not ALL of the members of corps like the direction they are being led in on the field, but their choice is to either participate in their life-long dream, or don't.  I had to make that same choice myself in my college marching band, a choice I still haven't come to terms with.  You can't label concrete statements like what you've typed above as objective, OR critical thinking.  I concede that not everyone is disenfranchised by the modern activity, and I never said otherwise.  OF COURSE a lot of people posting here are fine with it, otherwise they wouldn't even be here.  After all, this is one of the only outlets for drum corps fans, besides r/drumcorps.   However, it should be much more telling that so many here are NOT fine with it, and it should also stand to reason that the vast majority of those who gave up on drum corps years ago as a result of this stuff aren't posting here.  Stop trying to act like we're the minority simply because people are still attending shows, and try to consider what attendance would look like WITHOUT all the extra crud that drove everyone else away.  I mean, what, would ticketholders today stop supporting drum corps if amplification and leotards were regulated or banned?  Is that what you think would happen?  Because the vibe we're getting is that drum corps should be supported no matter what's happening on the field.......right?  Or is amplification and winking at cameras implicit in that mandate?

 Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  Even the trolls on here are entitled to their opinion......when they choose to actually opine rather than bait and flame.  But if DCI and its patrons don't even want to explore the possibilities of what could have been (which essentially is the essence of this thread), then that's their loss.  That's ALL of our loss, whether we like vocalists and dancing or not.

here's some facts:

 

DCi didnt have accurate paid attendance numbers until 1997. Pre 1997, anyone going in the stadium....paid, wristband, VIP...was counted. Since they started counting paid only, only Pasadena at around 24,500 paid topped Indy this year. Prelims and finals set paid attendance records for Indy this year, and that isnt counting the streams and theater tickets...those numbers arent in yet.

Everyone likes to crow about 81 in Montreal. Here's some fact....30-40 of the corps that attended were school groups from Quebec and Ontario that only did those two years. So while Montreal in 81 had 98 groups, the average before that was 60-70 a year. hence the boost up to 36k. And many of those groups only performed the two years in Montreal. 

so attendance started dropping after that...long before the changes you so hate were implemented....and has started going back up in the last 7 years, after the changes you hate were put into place.

[Jeff Ream]

3 hours ago, StunnedMonkey said:

And? Because Led Zeppelin and Taylor Swift use theramins, keyboards, and pedaled guitar effects...drum corps should too?  They also play indoor on stages with small groups. I guess drum corps should too. And Zeppelin didn't use sopranos/trumpets. Why should DCI? 

DCI used to be a particular activity. Why was it necessary to turn it into something it wasn't?  Like I said earlier, if you take over a pizza shop and start selling nothing but vegan wraps and carrot juice...it's not a pizza shop anymore, regardless of what you call it.

Drum corps hasn't evolved. It changed in to something else completely.

 

 

if fans like it...and with attendance going up they seem to be liking it...why not?

 

DCi trying to stay as it was WAS dying. trying to appease the past while attract the future was failing. The numbers dont lie. Why did pasadena have 24000+ fans...because California FINALLY had a finals. I hate Indy, yet attendance is growing there, and at many shows across the country. I havent seen Allentown as full as it was today since it went to the two day format

[Jeff Ream]

1 hour ago, Jim Schehr said:

Would be very disappointed if the activity was the same as when I marched. 

shame too many of your compatriots think change should have stopped with them

[StunnedMonkey]

6 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

here's some facts:

 

DCi didnt have accurate paid attendance numbers until 1997. Pre 1997, anyone going in the stadium....paid, wristband, VIP...was counted. Since they started counting paid only, only Pasadena at around 24,500 paid topped Indy this year. Prelims and finals set paid attendance records for Indy this year, and that isnt counting the streams and theater tickets...those numbers arent in yet.

Everyone likes to crow about 81 in Montreal. Here's some fact....30-40 of the corps that attended were school groups from Quebec and Ontario that only did those two years. So while Montreal in 81 had 98 groups, the average before that was 60-70 a year. hence the boost up to 36k. And many of those groups only performed the two years in Montreal. 

so attendance started dropping after that...long before the changes you so hate were implemented....and has started going back up in the last 7 years, after the changes you hate were put into place.

 

You're assuming that the attendance and interest growth is in response to the actual product on the field. I certainly can't say either way if that's the case or not. But I'd contend that the Internet/Social Media/YouTube etc have had a lot to do with marketing the product so that it exposes far more people that it did 25 years ago. With the same marketing/communication today as was in place in 1990, what would the audience look like? 

As far as today's crowd? Lucas had a ton of people in it. But so did Mile High in 78.

[cixelsyd]

13 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

actually to project properly in monster stadiums without amplification, they had to beat the living #### out of instruments not meant to have the #### beaten out of them. 

No, that was never necessary.  Balance can always be affected by choosing how many of each instrument you use.

[cixelsyd]

8 hours ago, Jeff Ream said:

here's some facts:

 

DCi didnt have accurate paid attendance numbers until 1997. Pre 1997, anyone going in the stadium....paid, wristband, VIP...was counted. Since they started counting paid only, only Pasadena at around 24,500 paid topped Indy this year. Prelims and finals set paid attendance records for Indy this year, and that isnt counting the streams and theater tickets...those numbers arent in yet.

Everyone likes to crow about 81 in Montreal. Here's some fact....30-40 of the corps that attended were school groups from Quebec and Ontario that only did those two years. So while Montreal in 81 had 98 groups, the average before that was 60-70 a year. hence the boost up to 36k. And many of those groups only performed the two years in Montreal. 

so attendance started dropping after that...long before the changes you so hate were implemented....and has started going back up in the last 7 years, after the changes you hate were put into place.

Facts?

- In 1981, there were a grand total of 14 corps from Quebec/Ontario in competition at DCI Championships.  Not 30-40.  They were:

Eclipses

Arc-en-Ciel

Chatelaines

Ventures

Brantford Girls

Bandettes

Dutch Boy

Etoiles Dorion

Bluewater Buccaneers

Aventuriers

2nd Decade

Alliance Musicale

Newmarket Ambassadors

St. Andrew's

- These were not all "school groups".  Nearly all of them were independent.

- Of those 14 corps alleged to have only participated in the Montreal years, 10 went to DCI Championships at other sites.

I am not even sure what you are trying to imply with your "alternative facts".  Of course there were more corps in Montreal in 1981 and 1982.  There were a lot of corps in the Northeastern U.S. back then, as well as Quebec and Ontario.  There were nearly 200 competing junior corps in North America back then... which, like the 35,947 total attendance of the 1981 finals, dwarfs the modern DCI driven activity even with the slight growth of recent years factored in.

Your statement regarding attendance trends is also inaccurate, and I can imagine why.  It is clear from your recent posts that you are trying to attribute recent uptrends to the changes under discussion here.  Since you brought up "facts", how about providing some that support your hypothesis?  Show us how, and when, particular changes caused growth among corps, membership, or spectators.

[jwillis35]

4 hours ago, StunnedMonkey said:

 

You're assuming that the attendance and interest growth is in response to the actual product on the field. I certainly can't say either way if that's the case or not. But I'd contend that the Internet/Social Media/YouTube etc have had a lot to do with marketing the product so that it exposes far more people that it did 25 years ago. With the same marketing/communication today as was in place in 1990, what would the audience look like? 

As far as today's crowd? Lucas had a ton of people in it. But so did Mile High in 78.

I get what your saying, and we can argue numbers of fans at shows until we are all blue in the face. In the end, we are talking about different times, places, different models for running a corps in the 21st Century, and the cultural climate today is vastly different.  As Jeff mentioned in one of his posts, part of the reason the attendance was great during the Montreal years was the number of Canadian groups that took part for those 2 years only. But there were other reasons too.

I was there in 1982 and also feel part of the big attendance numbers were due to having Finals in another country, and Montreal is a wonderful city with great history, food, things to do, and that stadium had just been used for the Olympics and I think people thought it would be cool to see a DCI show there. 

Even today, with numbers going up and all -- and I am pleased for DCI that this is the case -- I still clamor for an occasional Finals somewhere else. And I think numbers would continue to be good. However, I feel nothing is proven when people argue over attendance figures. In the 50s and 60s drum corps had a more local flavor.  There were lots of rivalries that may have driven attendance (among other things). 

I always go back to the following questions when arguments like this break out:

1) If everything was so good back in the day, then why did all those corps disappear?

2) Regardless of what your reasoning for question #1 might be, we are where we are. What did you expect to happen? No Change at all? 

3) Did we all expect DCI to not mirror present-day culture and to stay firmly implanted in the 60s or 70s?

Edited August 15, 2017 by jwillis35