glory Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Many of us have taken for granted that DCI programs reflect to some large degree a tendency to follow the leader. The dominant corps sets the pace for pack. The pack emulates – even imitates – the leader to win esteem among peers, prestige among recruits and points among judges. At least that’s how many of us have been thinking. But is it so? What evidence is there to show that the leader has followers? Consider these leaders since 2005: Cadets – Zone Cavies – Machine Blue Devils – Winged Victory Phantom Regiment – Spartacus Blue Devils – 1930 Blue Devils – Through a Glass Darkly Can we sketch out specific examples of how other corps in the years following followed the lead of one or more of these corps? HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) Many of us have taken for granted that DCI programs reflect to some large degree a tendency to follow the leader. The dominant corps sets the pace for pack. The pack emulates – even imitates – the leader to win esteem among peers, prestige among recruits and points among judges. At least that’s how many of us have been thinking. But is it so? What evidence is there to show that the leader has followers? Consider these leaders since 2005: Cadets – Zone Cavies – Machine Blue Devils – Winged Victory Phantom Regiment – Spartacus Blue Devils – 1930 Blue Devils – Through a Glass Darkly Can we sketch out specific examples of how other corps in the years following followed the lead of one or more of these corps? HH Until most recently, it was the influential Corps Directors of a few of the top Corps that pushed through the DCI Rules Committee the adoption of new instrumentation, synths, use of amplification, use of narration, voice,pre show, etc and other changes that filiterd down to other Corps. This is where we saw the most" copycat " changes. As far as Corps copying the shows of the top Corps, there was not much of that seen in my opinion. We saw SOME aspects of copying the leader in very small measures in field shows however. For example, when Phantom put a member of their Guard up on the DM podium in their winning DCI Title show a few years back, the following year we saw other Corps put a guard marcher up on the DM podium in a portion of their show. Once a Corps does some new twist regarding MM body movement, or percussion stick movement ( ala BD a few years back ), or something like this, we'll see that used in a few Corps shows the next year. But this is mostly cosmetic, very small insignificant duplications that become evident, imo. I don't really see the winning DCI 's show style being adopted wholesale by other Corps the following year. Thats not been my take anyway. I don't see much " follow the leader " as The Cadevaliers themselves ( Cadets, BD, Cavs ) change their show theme style up from year to year, and none of these 3 Corps follow the show theme style of the other 2 leaders to begin with, imo..... When I look at Crown, Phantom, and the Bluecoats this year, they didn't copy the style of BD's winning show style from last year...SCV didn't copy the Cadets... Boston didn't copy the performance show style of the Cavs.... Madison marches to the beat of a different drummer too. They all seem to from my observations anyway. Edited September 1, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 You are looking at this leader/follower issue at the incorrect angle. It is not a corps to corps issue but an organization to organization situation. DCI is now following the conceptual lead of BOA instead of BOA following the lead of DCI. Some here defend this by calling BOA the "testing ground" for the DCI staff; but nevertheless this conceptual stuff is on the BOA cutting edge first, which thus makes BOA the leader and DCI the follower. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 You are looking at this leader/follower issue at the incorrect angle. It is not a corps to corps issue but an organization to organization situation. DCI is now following the conceptual lead of BOA instead of BOA following the lead of DCI. Some here defend this by calling BOA the "testing ground" for the DCI staff; but nevertheless this conceptual stuff is on the BOA cutting edge first, which thus makes BOA the leader and DCI the follower. No offense, but take that discussion to another thread. I'd like to discuss how corps are (or aren't) following the lead of the top corps from the recent previous years. HH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) No offense, but take that discussion to another thread. I'd like to discuss how corps are (or aren't) following the lead of the top corps from the recent previous years. HH Ok: Following the lead of the top corps: Equipment (synths, amps); Numbers (150); Show Continuity (titles to shows, all music played by a single corps show is related). "Not" following the lead: Musical Genres; Props; Story Telling; Musical Arranging Styles; Uniform Choice. Edited September 1, 2011 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 You are looking at this leader/follower issue at the incorrect angle. It is not a corps to corps issue but an organization to organization situation. DCI is now following the conceptual lead of BOA instead of BOA following the lead of DCI. Some here defend this by calling BOA the "testing ground" for the DCI staff; but nevertheless this conceptual stuff is on the BOA cutting edge first, which thus makes BOA the leader and DCI the follower. I think WGI is just as much of an influence 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 (edited) I think WGI is just as much of an influence Agreed. The artistic body sculpture movements, the visual enhancements, the story telling which only comes across in the close-up shots on the DVD, all of that "originated" within WGI. But be careful; the OP wants us to, "... take that discussion to another thread". Edited September 2, 2011 by Stu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I think the reason why this thread is having a problem answering the OP's question is the same reason it hasn't been answered in the other thread (of nearly the same topic, concerning Cesario's efforts)........there is no answer! A lot of generalization and innuendo...but even the great Boo can't (or won't) identify who and what is FTL. The accusations drift into the advent of electronics, synths (including thunderous goo), guitars, micing solos, sound boards, vocals and sampling, etc. These are being done by everyone (and particularly by non-leaders). The OP has cleverly exposed those on DCP who think they can support their accusation about prevailing trends (choppy scores, park and blow, scatter drill, blah, blah, blah) "pulling" the activity in a lethal direction. There are a gallant few of these boards who have made a stab at it, but their examples are weak at best. Over several years now the accusation has been that DC is being corrupted and the proof trotted out is "look who's winning and what they're doing". But in fact as this thread will bear out.......I see very little proof of FTL going on. Perhaps 3 corps are dabbling in the "corrupting influences" (CC, Cavies & SCV)....the corrupting agent is presumably BD. The other corrupting influences (mentioned in the paragraph above) are being done by EVERYONE and are proof of nothing! So what's the take away from this.....it has nothing to do with the leader(s).....nothing! A few on DCP have been honest enough to admit that they "fear" that BD's recent dominance will influence a field of followers and that is why they are vocal about it. Not that it's happened, but that it might happen. In the end, it's a specious argument that has gone nowhere! The truth (as I see it) is that most don't (or in my view) couldn't FTL anyway. The phenomenal music book put on the field by BD in 2010 was a rare glimpse at the edge of musical performance capability for the marching arts. Playing that book standing still was ridiculous enough, but doing it with that drill was IMO something only one corps could or would have attempted. So....who was going to follow that? And judging from the crap they took for it.....who would want to? FTL is a myth designed to influence opinion and bend the conversation in the direction of those (particularly traditionalists) that hated the idea of props and avant garde music beating the field (and not by fractions). DC was never at risk of mass migration to FTL for the simple reason that many of the finalist corps would have had enormous difficulty in performing it at a championship level. BD did it and moved on......so everyone needs to just relax and enjoy what's next, and stop bad mouthing everything thats' new coming down the pike. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) I think the reason why this thread is having a problem answering the OP's question is the same reason it hasn't been answered in the other thread (of nearly the same topic, concerning Cesario's efforts)........there is no answer! A lot of generalization and innuendo...but even the great Boo can't (or won't) identify who and what is FTL. The accusations drift into the advent of electronics, synths (including thunderous goo), guitars, micing solos, sound boards, vocals and sampling, etc. These are being done by everyone (and particularly by non-leaders). The OP has cleverly exposed those on DCP who think they can support their accusation about prevailing trends (choppy scores, park and blow, scatter drill, blah, blah, blah) "pulling" the activity in a lethal direction. There are a gallant few of these boards who have made a stab at it, but their examples are weak at best. Over several years now the accusation has been that DC is being corrupted and the proof trotted out is "look who's winning and what they're doing". But in fact as this thread will bear out.......I see very little proof of FTL going on. Perhaps 3 corps are dabbling in the "corrupting influences" (CC, Cavies & SCV)....the corrupting agent is presumably BD. The other corrupting influences (mentioned in the paragraph above) are being done by EVERYONE and are proof of nothing! So what's the take away from this.....it has nothing to do with the leader(s).....nothing! A few on DCP have been honest enough to admit that they "fear" that BD's recent dominance will influence a field of followers and that is why they are vocal about it. Not that it's happened, but that it might happen. In the end, it's a specious argument that has gone nowhere! The truth (as I see it) is that most don't (or in my view) couldn't FTL anyway. The phenomenal music book put on the field by BD in 2010 was a rare glimpse at the edge of musical performance capability for the marching arts. Playing that book standing still was ridiculous enough, but doing it with that drill was IMO something only one corps could or would have attempted. So....who was going to follow that? And judging from the crap they took for it.....who would want to? FTL is a myth designed to influence opinion and bend the conversation in the direction of those (particularly traditionalists) that hated the idea of props and avant garde music beating the field (and not by fractions). DC was never at risk of mass migration to FTL for the simple reason that many of the finalist corps would have had enormous difficulty in performing it at a championship level. BD did it and moved on......so everyone needs to just relax and enjoy what's next, and stop bad mouthing everything thats' new coming down the pike. I'm going to effectively hijack this thread because it's about to die anyway. I'll get back to FTL in a bit. Plan, my friend, if you want to know how warped I am, I've spent the last week thinking about your phobia, not because it's you, per se, but because it's about drum corps. I've been stewing on a what's wrong with your brain - "how do I look at the world through Plan's eyes?" kind of way. I've tried to consider my positions from a "I hate BD" perspective, and I can't. I simply don't hate BD. Yet, you consistently, over may threads, have posited this position that all of the discussions about what's good or bad about the activity reduces down to a lowest common denominator that I do, in fact, hate BD. I hate that they won. I hate their show design. I hate that others follow them (although they are dam-ed to never succeed, say you). I hate where they're leading the activity. On and on. Worse, you contend that this phenomenon only happens to BD. That it's not "the leader", it's BD. If we have anything negative to say about BD, it's because we HATE BD! (dagnabbit!) What intrigues me is not that I might actually hate BD and therefore believe in FTL and other theories. I know I don't hate BD. It's not that you think everyone hates a winner, because you claim it doesn't happen to any other winner. What sticks at me is that you think that the only answer can possibly be that I hate BD. Maybe I need more wine, maybe I need more time to reflect. But I don't think so. I've never hated ANY corps! I don't think I'm alone in that either. I've considered that other winners have gotten hate posts but you continue to say that it's only BD. I don't get it, Plan. I'm not qualified to pass judgement on the source of this everyone-hates-BD phobia of yours, but I suspect it's a disease called "Rabidius Fandomium", and I could never hold you in contempt for your opinion with that disease. But I don't know how else to describe the malady other than as plagued by excessive self consciousness and, possibly, sensitivity towards any criticism, constructive or otherwise, of YOUR corps. It's surely not that you lack confidence in your position. I don't hate BD, Plan. And every thread I start or in which I comment is not coming from the position that I hate them. I enjoyed their drill in '10, I love, Loved, LOVED the mirrors! It was the music that made me puke, but I still didn't hate them. I didn't like Cadets' offerings of The Door and The Poor-is-Me, fireside chat show, but I didn't hate them. I love them today like I did 25 years ago. Your positions seem to follow that same line of thinking, and I'd like for you to think of a discussion from a non-defensive position and grant me that I may simply not like something about BD, or others, without claiming that I have deep-seated hatred for a corps. It's just not true. FTL is a definable, verifiable fact that you did a pretty good job of validating with your prior post. It's all those things. FTL is a natural inclination that takes effort to fight; the "Me Too" syndrome that marks the slow death of creativity. Amps, props, chop and bops, they are all the product of a corps naturally trying to find that mix that gets them to the trophy table regardless of who did them the year before. In recent years, and because of the FTL attitude, I have, rightly IMO, held the "top corps" responsible for the direction they pull the activity - I had 7 corps to "hate" last year - and the MC project was an obvious admission by DCI that I was not alone in that belief. However he influenced the corps it was, most certainly, from a position of "be yourself" and not "We're tired of BD winning all the time." I'm glad this year was not replete with chop-and-bop horn books; but I would feel the same way whether or not it was BD, or Cadets, or Boston that happened to be in the leadership position of DCI corps. I simply don't agree with the programming direction. MC and the judges are working to eliminate FTL, not prevent BD from putting on crazy shows, or winning. In fact, I "hate" the corps that subscribe to FTL as much, or more, than the "leaders" with whom I disagree. I think they're foolish for abandoning their own, unique style to FTL. I disagree, but I don't hate them. FTL exists because of "group think", a desire to win, a crappy judging system, and lack of guts.. It takes more guts, in my opinion, for a corps to hold to it's true values than it does to buy fifteen massive mirrors just 'cause BD won with them in 2010. The MC project, I believe, is a reinforcement of that desire for diversity (while they fix the sheets to reward it better). The MC project is not the outgrowth of a "We Hate BD!" attitude. I hate FTL and the circumstances that reward and propagate it. I don't hate BD. Edited September 11, 2011 by garfield 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rifuarian Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 (edited) You're going at this a little too black and white. Rarely will you see a corps copying the leader wholesale. This especially true with the elite corps, who have some of the best minds in the activity on staff. Instead of copying the dominant, they try to come up with a way to beat them, which usually means devising some sort of formula quite different from whatever the leader is using. But sometimes a dominant corps introduces an element that gives them an undeniable advantage, and which other groups ignore at their peril. They have to adapt. This adaptation isn't always obvious, but happens over several years, and designers and instructors do their best fit the adaptation in with their own style Think about, say, the arranging style pioneered by BD in the 90s, or their consistently successful introduction of WGI material into drum corps. Or the guard integration, brass approach, and music-visual synchronicity that the Cavies brought to the tables in the early 2000s. Or the innovations of the Cadets in the 80s. Yes, many corps buck these trends, but even more adapt to them . . . though not always in the most obvious ways. And rarely are these trends permanent. But you can't seriously argue that Cadets, Cavies, BD, etc. have not heavily influenced many other corps during their respective periods of dominance (rarely can you point to one show as being highly influential . . . it's usually a series of shows that does this). "Follow the leader" is sometimes subtle, but it's there. Especially if you bother to examine many of the lower placing corps in the activity. And it's not really a bad thing. Edited September 11, 2011 by Rifuarian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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