mingusmonk

OK. I will start the discussion with suggesting this be posted in the previous Ratings thread. http://www.drumcorpsplanet.org/forums//ind...showtopic=69835

Can you educate me on how to find anything outside of the top 10's on this site? Or is that what you are talking about?

Do ratings matter? Well, DCI thinks they are worth something. (did somebody predict a press release like this? ) ESPN2 ratings “exceed expectations”

In the "No Midwest Favorite Poll?" thread I almost posted: Because everyone hates to see Star of Indiana win. I'm not sure why they would have been left out of this poll, given how successful they were (especially in comparison to most on the poll). BTW - I was rooting for the late 80's Emerald Knights. They performed with an attitude that was as big as any full sized corps. Same could have been said for the short-lived Limited Edition. Also - Northern Aurora deserves a mention.

Also, I'm glad somebody pointed out ESPN2 is definitely NOT sub-prime cable. They are prime, and only trail ESPN penetration by a few million households. One last thing, the DCI show is not likley to be published on any ratings web site (nielsen, zap2it.com) as they typically only show the tops per segment (top 10 cable, top 20 sports, etc). Jeff has heard a number that sounds believable and very positive. But I'm just itching for DCI to publish the real number. And while 84BDsop's comment about statistics has merit, so does his opening statement ... the numbers are what sells to the channel and potential sponsers.

Not exactly the case is it? Are you saying that ESPN does not have real ratings #'s across the board for every prime-time slot? That there are segments in their ratings reports that show N/A? Just trying to make sure I understand what you mean Also, ESPN does not just show whatever an organization is willing to pay for. They have their own success in mind. And that means more than just collecting time-buy $$. If I came to them with a family fortune and wanted to televise my family thumb-wrestling competition .... it would not be a slam dunk.

Good point, Matt. They have been bands for years.

A few thoughts. I think everyone can agree that the RCA Dome has horrible acoustics. I feel so bad for the many people that sit outside the 40's (or anywhere too high or too low)... especially if it is their first-ever drum corps experience. I can't imagine how many potential new fans might walk away and not give the activity another thought. Personally, the Indy show is a social event for me. I just go and hang with friends and fellow-alumns. Drink some beverage. Check out the parking lot activity. I will not pay for what the dome provides. I'm more likely to pay for a return to the Bloomington soccer field ('86, '87) show than to pay for DCI at the RCA dome. OK - glad to get that off of my chest. It should be safe to assume that the new facility will have better acoustics, as they can't be much worse. But as excited as I am about the new stadium, I'm not ready to cite it as the perfect venue. Those that are claiming this, are being a little presumoptious. It is positive that DCI, ISSMA and BOA are all seen as valuable clients, which means that good changes for them, should be good changes for the stadium ... which could mean temporary acoustic solutions that are installed for music events (crossing fingers). Speaking of other venues ... can somebody tell me about IUPUI's football stadium? I have no idea that such a think exists. They do have a track and soccer field, but it is hardly regional quality (um, barely typical DCI show quality, considering all of the other options in the area). Bloomington Memorial Stadium - why not? I mean, they have lights in that stadium, thanks to drum corps. It's large, there is hotel and parking space. A fairly central location. Long term, when I-69 is done, travel there will be near ideal. As stated, Notre Dame Stadium is not an option. Even if Ross Aide were available, I personally find the location of West Lafayette too much "in the sticks" (this coming from somebody that lives in Terre Haute :P). There really are no other facilities in Indiana that are DCI Regional-ready. BUT - there are plenty of regions and stadiums in Indiana that are starving for local shows. But that's another thread.

Where did this number come from? If the Tuesday night ESPN2 ratings for a niche (non-sporting) event like DCI's pulled 450,000 then DCI should be extremely proud, and should be bragging very soon in public ... a press release of the highest order.

I did - those were some crazy notes. Talk about a freakin' buzz kill.

Actually, he is a professor at Indiana State University. ISU, not IU. Anyhow, my overall rating is a "meh." I'm not bagging it. I'm glad to see it on The Duece. It was well produced (although it did seem like a challenge for the audio folks to have to battle the amp stuff. Tragic side-effet, the Amps are there to push sounds that cannot be heard in outdoor venues, and it appears to be causing trouble for the broadcasts). I too would have preferred more performance and less filler. But this is not really a slam to DCI. That's a tough choice to make. Hopefully it works best for the activity, even if it doesn't work best for me. Time will tell.

Ssss. Blue.

But if a walkthrough document is needed to follow the program, then what's the point? Hopefully, as they complete and refine, it will stand on it's own.

OK. We kind of did this once before, but my drum corps fan-engine was at top speed in '88, so I will provide my memories again. I attended the following shows in '88. June 20, 1988 - Mishawaka, IN June 26, 1988 - Goshen, IN July 16, 1988 - Dekalb, IL - DCM Championships August 10, 1988 - Bloomington, IN August 13, 1988 - Marion, OH (US Open) (Ah, the glory days of Indiana drum corps. So many shows, so little time, so little access to mom and dad's car :) ) So I got my fill during the famous midwest summer drought of '88. Glad I didn't march in that heat. Especially considering that Bluecoats were still lugging around those tanks known as Ludwigs :P. The Bluecoats had it all out there when the season started. I saw them barely get beat by the Cavaliers on 6/20 (And still remaining close in Goshen on 6/26). Both the content of the show and the level of the performance didn't evolve too much as the season progressed. It was fun as a fan to be able to see a corps performing a show so well when the season started. It is too often that shows aren't even done in the opening weeks. I endied up marching with my share of Bluecoats '88 alumni, and they were all really close group as a result of that summer. It seemed that the tough year made for some tight bonding. The Cavaliers' Firebird show was a real leap that year. I remember both of my (drum-corps-saavy) band directors being baffled by the show in June. They were thinking that the Cavies staff had lost their mind. Looking back, it appears that they were probably ahead of the curve on some of the show's, um ... artistic ... nature (sorry, not sure how to put it). As this show would probably have fit in better in about 5 more years. I really enjoy this show now. Probably more than most 5th place shows. I only went to finals of DCM championships in 1988. That was a memorable experience. The Madison Scouts were NOT good. I'm not sure how else to put it. I had a chance to chat with my old drum mentor and instructor in the stands, who had attended prelims, and the comments were not so postive. There was a buzz around the stands and it was not the kind of buzz Madison would have wanted. As far as the Cavaliers came during the '88 season, the Scouts came even further. And obviously in a more accessible fashion. Especially when you consider they spent a good portion of the first tour in Europe. Here were the DCM final scores: 1 Phantom Regiment 84.000 2 Star of Indiana 83.000 3 Cavaliers 81.900 4 Madison Scouts 81.400 5 Bluecoats 78.300 6 Sky Ryders 71.700 So this was my first chance to see Phantom Regiment ... ever. Boy did they come out of the gate strong (as would be their habit in the late 80's). I find this show connects very well. The brass writing is key. I know that their overall percussion arrangements were starting to become a little dated, but that freaking snare line was just sick (um, in a good way). Kind of a midwest drummers dream at that point. Opening with that Ritardando snare double stroke roll. Very ballsy move. I have heard some stories from alumni about trying to learn the drill to the drum solo. Apparently Marty had to explain the rhythmn of each bar, one at a time, for them. Is this a drum corps urban legend? This was also my first chance to really see Star for the year. Although I had already had some exposure to the program, as there were some connections at my school. There are probably about 4 Star shows that I like more than this, but I really enjoyed it. Again - from a teenage drummer perspective ... Unison mallets doing the Porgy and Bess theme?!? Whoo-hoo! There was not a lot of talk about "great sideline percussion" in those days, but Star ruled the late 80's (along with SCV). Also, the battery was talented and had creative integration of the snare and tenor sections. Didn't the tenors do something different with the spot drum that year? Cut to August and Star's home show. The last year for the Bloomingtin soccer stadium show! My first Blue Devils experience. And what a way to start. '88 Devils is my 2nd favorite BD show of all time (next to '86). The program just oozed with attitude. From start to finish, it had at all. Wailing, soft jazzy touch, and the closing "west coast jazzers can also scatter, and be a lot cooler doing it." They ended up right in the middle of a very compact Top 4 that year. Cavies had begun to open the gap on the Bluecoats and Star was close behind. Top Scores at Bloomington (which will be more relevant in a moment): 1 Blue Devils 95.200 2 Cavaliers 93.300 3 Star of Indiana 92.400 4 Bluecoats 87.600 A few days later, I take my parents on their first Drum Corps excursion. Or were they taking me? To the 1988 US Open Finals in Marion, OH. I have no recollection as to why we went this show instead of something closer (Indy? Ft Wayne?). We arrived and parked and a kind soul told us that there was a hissing sound coming from our vehicle. We went back and could not confirm it - must be nothing. Prelims results looked like this: 1 Garfield Cadets 93.200 2 Phantom Regiment 92.800 3 Star of Indiana 92.300 4 Dutch Boy 84.600 5 Blue Knights 76.400 6 Colts 75.300 7 Spartans (WA) 63.200 8 Glassmen 62.300 9 Beatrix 59.200 10 Oakland Crusaders 51.400 So I was well familiar with all of these big dog's programs at this point, except Garfield. I had heard of it, but had niether heard nor seen it. As an aspiring music major, and quirky teenager, I was intrigued by this show. Copelands 3rd came across OK. But of course, Cadets had to push the envelope. My mother, the music appreciator of my family, was baffled. Much like my band directors witnessing the Cavaliers months earlier. I was instantly impressed by the split drumlines, but there was not much to latch into from this show. As the scores began to be announced, it was obvious that things were a little shook up. The lower placing corps were taking extreme shifts. Next thing you know, Star of Indiana was the winner of the US Open. Over Cadets AND PR!! As they had done the week before! Needless to say, our friends in Star were exstatic that they were positioned to be Top 4 or 5 material with the championship show just one week away. US Open Scores below: ... Oh, and when we got back to the van, and it had a flat tire. :P 1 Star of Indiana 94.300 2 Garfield Cadets 93.800 3 Phantom Regiment 93.300 4 Dutch Boy 86.000 5 Blue Knights 80.000 6 Colts 78.500 7 Glassmen 65.600 8 Spartans (WA) 65.200 9 Beatrix 59.600 10 Oakland Crusaders 44.400 Obviously finals week did not go as planned or as expected for everyone. I was not there, and as was shocked to come home from band camp and watch the results: Cotton McKnight:And the Average Joe's beat the Purple Cobras in a *shocking* upset. Pepper Brooks: I feel *shocked* So went 1988. Enter 1989 - my quests to see more shows in one summer than any fan should. and to see SCV do Phantom of the Opera before I die.

I get the point. You don't have to yell. B) I was still a neophyte in '87. I only went to one show that summer - Bloomington, IN. It was my third show ever. 1 Santa Clara Vanguard 94.90 2 Star of Indiana 88.80 3 Velvet Knights 88.40 4 Dutch Boy 78.20 4 Troopers 78.20 6 Boston Crusaders 74.00 7 Colts 73.70 So every corps here was a "first" for me, with the exception of Star. The Colts experience is barely logged in my memory. I distinctly remember Boston playing Conquest, as they played it at retreat, too. They really were tough mothers. When I was walking to the restroom, I saw them tapping off the field after their performance ... I had never heard of the phrase "breaking rank," at that point. But I knew ###### well that I wasn't going to be the one to go through there. Very intimidating to a scrawny 15 year old kid at the time. I had been briefed on what to expect from the Troopers. Obviously that was my first Sunburst - which lived up to the hype. I cannot recall any of the live experience from Dutch Boy. VK blew everyone away. I know VK had a reputation of being a fun-loving corps, and it was late in the season - so word was out, but nothing had prepared the hoosiers in attendance for the blast they were going to have. Star certainly had a great crowd response, but VK stole their thunder. I had seen some rehearsal earlier, and knew some of the "kids" in the corps, so this was the show for which I was most prepared. It was fun, but it is one of my least favorite Star shows. SCV ... I am not exagerrating when I say this. This 1987 Santa Clara Vanguard experience is what locked me into the activity. When they were through performing, I knew that I had to be in drum corps. It was so appealing. They were so talented. It all clicked. As a matter of fact, I came back home to my local drumline and turned into a world class A-hole. I felt inspired to achieve something, and didn't feel like everyone else was as committed. (#) Santa Clara went on to play Russian Christmas, in an arch, for retreat. On a cool side note, Bloomington PBS recorded this show and it was broadcast around Indiana. I caught it midway through the Troopers show and recorded it through the SCV standstill. The bad news is, I can no longer find the tape (just looked about a month ago). Don Pesceone and a local PBS talking head were hosts. In a funny moment, the PBS guy is talking about how these kids are different than your average riff-raff on the streets these days, and Don laughs and says something like "no. They are just like all of the other kids around the world. They deal with the exact same issues." (#) Footnote: The funny thing about my being an a-hole to the drumline is this. We were all pretty tight and very much committed. Of guys I marched drumline with in my 4 years of high school ... we ended up with 5 in Bluecoats, and 3 in Star.

Looking at the top 12, there was only a bit of direct redundancy in '87. SCV doing russian again Cavies doing Korean Folk Song But there definately was a "similar feel" of the 1987 shows to previous corps shows. Even though Free was the only thing BD had ever played before 1987, their show had a very familiar feel - even with a Zappa drum solo. And Madison's program was not redundant for them, but the tunes certainly were old corps standards. And it could certainly be argued that this was one of Suncoast's less unique programs (given their material before and after 87). All of that being said, there were some great "break-through moments" in '87: Obviously Cadets took the "art" to a new level with the Appalachian Spring concept (scatter drill! - remember when that was a "holy crap!" moment?). Star put a whole freaking circus on a football field. Even though the tunes were drum corp re-hash, it certainly didn't feel redundant. As mentioned, VK certainly set the stage in '87 for some very fun years with the very first Magical Myster Tour. And there were some great sentimental moments too: Lurking at DCP History lends one to think that Sky's West Side Story show is a fan favorite (OK - a toss up with Oz). I would tend to agree. The Bluecoats broke into the big leagues and everyone will think of Autumn Leaves and the Blooo thanks to 1987. PR made a helluva comeback surge. And one of the top emotional performances of all time - SCV pouring it on an extremely moving finish with Kiev.

I do remember specifics, but I will refrain from getting into those details in a public forum. We (the Bluecoats) sure did earn a reputation on retreat in the '90s. You know things are getting loose, when you are next to VK and they think you're too relaxed.

Actually, that was a direct qoute of Hey Jude during the "scatter." Initially, during the freak-out, there was one sop(?) that was playing some Hey Jude and other horns playing other classic riffs. But there was so much stuff going on, that you probably would not have noticed. A week before finals, Bruce Mcconnell had strangely gathered Beatles recordings from the few of us on tour that carried them on the road (I gave him Abbey Road and Sgt Peppers). In retrospect, we now know that he was planning for the infamous "Jazz-a-phonic" 1992 show. A couple of days later, they converted that Hey Jude into a unison soprano lick. An intentional foreshadowing of 1992. <Insert Paul Harvey "...rest of the story" here.> A very similar feeling for me is 1980 Madison Scouts. Playing Our Song felt kind of cheesy. Not their best Malaguena. 2-7 did a better New Country in '80. But that push in Through the Eyes of Love ... whoah nelly!

Don't want to sound like a whiner here. But the thread asked for it. I marched in a corps that has only missed finals once between 1987 and the present. Only once in 18 years. Placements ranged from 12th to 6th. Yet not a single person mentioned any show from my corps as a vote for the DCI Classic Countdown in the many 80's, 90's and 2000's threads. As a matter of fact, I would be surprised if any of our shows were voted by somebody other than a member or alumnus. Did I expect us to show up at the theaters? No. Did I expect a little more mention? Yes. Is it a big deal? Nope.

Woah! Dang. That flashback just hit me smack in the face! That was '90. Some good and friendly people in that line. I went to college with one of those tenors.

Spider? Late 80's Suncoast '89 Star. Cannot remember the name. Scottish diddy with a nice snare solo.

Personalilty? Larry Hershman.

First saw drum corps in 1986 in Bloomington, IN. Saw Cavaliers, Suncoast Sound, Garfield Cadets, Star of Indiana, Sky Ryders. I had no idea what I was witnessing, but I was definitely hooked. To a teenager learning to play bass drum at the time, and seeing the famous Suncoast 86 bass solo But what really launched an unhealthy obsession was seeing 1987 SCV in the same location, one year later. Both the show, and then hearing Russian Xmas standstill and seeing the battery at work.

OK. I was starting to get into drum corps very deeply as a fan around this time, so I am going to pile on - in a good way, I hope. I attended the following shows in '88. June 20, 1988 - Mishawaka, IN June 26, 1988 - Goshen, IN July 16, 1988 - Dekalb, IL - DCM Championships August 10, 1988 - Bloomington, IN August 13, 1988 - Marion, OH (US Open) (Ah, the glory days of Indiana drum corps. So many shows, so little time, so little access to mom and dad's car :) ) So I got my fill during the famous midwest summer drought of '88. Glad I didn't march in that heat. Especially considering that Bluecoats were still lugging around those tanks known as Ludwigs :P (you out there Phil?) The Bluecoats had it all out there when the season started. I saw them barely get beat by the Cavaliers on 6/20 (And remaining close in Goshen on 6/26). Both the content of the show and the level of the performance didn't evolve too much as the season progressed. It was fun as a fan to be able to see a corps performing a show so well when the season started. As too often, shows aren't even done in the opening weeks. I marched with my share of '88 alumni, and they were all really close group as a result of that summer. It seemed that the tough year made for some tight bonding. The Cavaliers' Firebird show was a real leap that year. I remember both of my (drum-corps-saavy) band directors being baffled by the show in June. They were thinking that the Cavies staff had lost their mind. Looking back, it appears that they were probably ahead of the curve on some of the show's, um ... artistic ... nature (sorry, not sure how to put it). As this show would have fit in probably better in about 5 more years. I really enjoy this show now. Probably more than most 5th place shows. I only went to finals of DCM championships. That was a memorable experience. The Madison Scouts were NOT good. I'm not sure how else to put it. I had a chance to chat with my old drum mentor and instructor, who had attended prelims, and the comments were not so postive. There was a buzz around the stands and it was not the kind of buzz Madison would have wanted. As far as the Cavaliers came during the '88 season, the Scouts came even further. And obviously in a more accessible fashion. Especially when you consider they spent a good portion of the first tour in Europe. Here were the DCM final scores: 1 Phantom Regiment 84.000 2 Star of Indiana 83.000 3 Cavaliers 81.900 4 Madison Scouts 81.400 5 Bluecoats 78.300 6 Sky Ryders 71.700 So this was my first chance to see Phantom Regiment ... ever. Boy did they come out of the gate strong (as would be their habit in the late 80's). I find this show connects very well. The brass writing is key. I know that their overall percussion arrangements were starting to become a little dated, but that freaking snare line was just sick. Kind of a midwest drummers dream at that point. Opening with that Ritardando snare double stroke roll. Very ballsy move. I have heard some stories from alumni about trying to learn the drill to the drum solo. Apparently Marty had to explain the rhythmn of each bar, one at a time, for them. Is this a drum corps urban legend? This was also my first chance to really see Star for the year. Although I had already had some exposure to the program, as there were some connections at my high school. There are probably about 4 Star shows that I like more than this, but I really enjoyed it. Again - from a teenage drummer perspective ... Unison mallets doing the Porgy and Bess theme?!? Whoo-hoo! There was not a lot of talk about "great sideline percussion" in those days, but Star ruled the late 80's (along with SCV). Also, the battery was talented and had creative integration of the snare and tenor sections. Cut to August and Star's home show. The last year for the Bloomingtin soccer stadium show! My first Blue Devils experience. And what a way to start. '88 Devils is my 2nd favorite BD show of all time (next to '86). The program just oozed with attitude. From start to finish, it had at all. Wailing, soft jazzy touch, and the closing "west coast jazzers can also scatter, and be a lot cooler doing it." They ended up right in the middle of a very compact Top 4 that year. Cavies had begun to open the gap on the Bluecoats and Star was close behind. Top Scores (which will be more relevant in a moment): 1 Blue Devils 95.200 2 Cavaliers 93.300 3 Star of Indiana 92.400 4 Bluecoats 87.600 A few days later, I take my parents on their first Drum Corps excursion. Or were they taking me? To the 1988 US Open Finals in Marion, OH. I have no recollection as to why we went this show instead of something closer (Indy? Ft Wayne?). We arrived and parked and a kind soul told us that there was a hissing sound coming from our vehicle. We went back and could not confirm it - must be nothing. Prelims results looked like this: 1 Garfield Cadets 93.200 2 Phantom Regiment 92.800 3 Star of Indiana 92.300 4 Dutch Boy 84.600 5 Blue Knights 76.400 6 Colts 75.300 7 Spartans (WA) 63.200 8 Glassmen 62.300 9 Beatrix 59.200 10 Oakland Crusaders 51.400 So I was well familiar with all of these big dog's programs at this point, except Garfield. I had heard of it, but had niether heard nor seen it. As an aspiring music major, and quirky teenager, I was intrigued by this show. Copelands 3rd came across OK. But of course, Cadets had to push the envelope. My mother, the music appreciator of my family, was baffled. Much like my band directors witnessing the Cavaliers months earlier. I was instantly impressed by the split drumlines, but there was not much to latch into from this show. As the scores began to be announced, it was obvious that things were a little shook up. The lower placing corps were taking extreme shifts. Next thing you know, Star of Indiana was the winner of the US Open. Over Cadets AND PR!! As they had done the week before! Needless to say, our friends in Star were exstatic that they were positioned to be Top 4 or 5 material with the championship show just one week away. US Open Scores below: ... Oh, and when we got back to the van, and it had a flat tire. 1 Star of Indiana 94.300 2 Garfield Cadets 93.800 3 Phantom Regiment 93.300 4 Dutch Boy 86.000 5 Blue Knights 80.000 6 Colts 78.500 7 Glassmen 65.600 8 Spartans (WA) 65.200 9 Beatrix 59.600 10 Oakland Crusaders 44.400 Obviously finals week did not go as planned or as expected for everyone. I was not there, and as was shocked to come home from band camp and watch the results: Cotton McKnight:And the Average Joe's beat the Purple Cobras in a *shocking* upset. Pepper Brooks: I feel *shocked* So went 1988. Enter 1989 - my quests to see more shows in one summer than any fan should. and to see SCV do Phantom of the Opera before I die.

If you really want the xmen, you all need to get on the same page for selecting a year. Otherwise, the simple splitting of those those votes could keep the xmen out. Although it's not entirely clear how DCI is going to choose what duplicate winners to knock out, and how they will select the alternates. "I'm OD'ing on intrigue!" - Crow T Robot