BRASSO

I gave Blue Devils, Crown, Cadets all the same score. 'liked some things each did, and other things, not so much. ( I'd make a lousy judge..... all ties in this grouping..... haha )

I liked all three of this grouping. I gave the edge to Boston however. Phantom was a tough call. Visually, it was sub par for them, and swing music seems out of character for Phantom. But Man, it still sounded pleasing to the ears. I liked the Blue Stars show a little better last year, but I still liked what they did this year. They integrated their Guard well in their show.

He also states that BD had no effect on this year's show designs. But Phantom Regiment won last year. And their final scene with the replacement of the DM on the podium led directly to 2 Finalist Corps this year utlilizing guards to go up onto the podium during portions of the show with the DM. The Blue Devils will likewise have an impact next year with other finalist Corps Visual Show Designers despite his predictions that they will not. It would be sheer folly for Corps like the Cadets to continue with the high risk ( low reward ) high velocity drills. It was inevitable in my opinion that eventually such high velocity drills would led to a fallen marcher. It's a shame that it happened to the Cadets at Finals. I have no doubt that the BD's win will have other Corps rethink their visual show design regarding drill and use of props next season. Otherwise, to repeat the same type of high velocity drill, but expect different results doesn't seem the most intelligent and wise thing to do. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that several Corps will slow down their high velocity drill approach and adopt a vertical visual with the use of props similar to the creative and innovative use of auxiliary props brilliantly utilized by the Blue Devils this year. If the OP thinks the Blue Devils will have no such influence in visual design for next season, then he is certainly entitled to that opinion. We'll just have to see if the other Corps next year arn't influenced in their visuals by this year's winner. Historically, they almost always have, including as we said, last year's winner having an impact on this year's visual shows.

I thought for awhile on this thread I was never going to see...." NY Skyliners ", and that would have saddened me. ( but I'm glad SOMEBODY finally put in a plug above for this once great Drum Corps powerhouse )

There is rarely a year when the DCI Champion would have been selected Champion if put to a vote of the national audience. Out of the last 25 years, maybe 3 or 4 Corps that won the title would likewise have been selected as the Crowd's favorite. The Star of Indiana was rarely a crowd favorite at the time either. When the Cavs were winning their titles, the people were complaining about the" lack of melody" When the Cadets won... they were " weird " When the Blue Devils were winning in the late 70's, late 80's fans complained about " their lack of visuals " Madison Scouts were loved in 95,... but came in fifth. however, some fans, particularly on the east coast, weren't thrilled with the Madison Scouts win in '75 when the Muchachos never took the field at Finals. Corps that are also rans always tend to be more loved than the ultimate champion. ( 84, 89, 2008, being some notable exceptions ) What the 2009 DCI Champion is experiencing is not that unusual at all. As a matter of fact, it is more the norm for the Champion.

well..... if Carolina Crown defies the long odds and wins a DCI Title next year, we all can be sure that the conspiracy buffs will be out diminishing what Crown did because it really was just a " sympathy gift " from the judging panel for not rewarding them sufficiently this year. It's a shame that the conspiracy buffs with their sympathy angle from the judges don't realize that they are setting their favorite Corps up for a diminishment of THEIR title should it occur. But it is what it is. And no doubt this thread can be retrieved easily enough next year when the conspiracy- sympathy nonsense needs to be invoked in the future as a reminder as how the judges apparently evaluate Corps at Finals. As the wise sage advice reminds us all..... " be careful what you say and do because what goes around, comes around ".

You seem to have a good grasp of this re. how the music and visual judges are asked ( and not asked ) to apply their evaluations. Would anyone here be surprised if the Blue Devils changed their show design approach if the judging captions changed their emphasis ? I wouldn't. Long time observers of DCI know how BD rethought their whole approach to shows, once they began to fall off a bit placement wise in the early 90's. Priior to this, BD could win with just a killer brass and percussion line, but just a so so visual. But the landscape changed. The Visual Age of Drum Corps came into being. And the judging captions changed with it. To their credit, the BD 's adapted to this new paradigm, but only after a few years of watching others pass them on the visual side to garner higher placements and titles. At the end of the day, the Champion is still the Corps that has an integrated theme that is deemed fresh and innovative, has sufficient demand THAT IS EXECUTED better than the others, and has a superior overall brass, drum, pit, guard. Thats the 2009 Blue Devils. That's why they went undefeated in 2009. If people wern't entertained, that's their perogative. But it didn't matter what combination of judging panels BD faced. They won them all over. And that's that. BD was not my favorite show for 2009. ( although it appears I liked it a LOT more than some DCP's here ) I have no problems with this years placements, nor scores. But if others here do, that's their opinion too, and that's cool.

These things are phases. Once they are done for a few years ( usually the shelf life on this stuff is 4-6 years ) some Corps will come out with a new body movement schtick, or new use of the hands in drumming schtick, and this will all be seen as old, stale, and passe. If you like this schtick, fine. If not, just be patient. It'll be gone before you know it, with a new schtick to enjoy ( or mock as the case may be )

haha.... love the analogy to a '"buzzer beater" ( so true ! )

Exactly. Good grief, they did move up in the standings this year. And they could just as easily have finished in 3rd place at Finals, instead of 2nd place. They didn't " miss their opportunity " this year. The Blue Devils simply" grabbbed their opportunity " and won convincingly. Crown ( like others ) gave it their best shot. There is nothing to fret about. It's not like Crown squandered an opportunity or anything. They got beat. But in the porcess they entertained a lot of us . I'd say they all in all they had a heck of a year.

Would it be incorrect to say that the possibility is strong that Carolina Crown would most likely have finished in 3rd place had a Cadets drummer not fallen down thereby effecting both their visual, GE, and percussion scores ? Might it also be true that the Blue Knights might have stayed ahead of the Glassmen had they not have had a collision of 2 members right in the beginning of their performance on Finals Night ? Hey these things happen. Crown finished 2nd because the Cadets had some unfortunate things occur, and thus Crown DESERVED to finish in 2nd place, not 3rd place. And good for them. ( as well as good for the Glassmen )

Well..... yes..... their will be people that will say " Crown was preordained to win 2010" because of 2009. It's part of the conspiracy "sympathy " cabal that is present apparently. So, absolutely there will be a repeat of the " sympathy " card that the judges will deliver to Carolina Crown should they win next year with some fans. Not by me. But with others. What makes us think that the conspiracy " sympathy " cabal with suddenly disappear next year should Carolina Crown win ? If this " preordained " nonsense is believed now, I don't see it suddenly disappearing next year, Michael.

the 35% stat could be construed as misleading, as not all of those 2nd place Corps had the Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavs ahead of the Corps that finished in 2nd place. More importantly, the 2nd place finishers did not have a record that did not include beating the Corps that finished in first. Carolina Crown has approx. a 1 in 8 chance of winning DCI next year. Not 1 in 3, if we use these 3 Corps as Corps the Crown would have to beat. The chances that Crown could fall to 3rd place(or lower) from 2nd place is also much higher than 32 %. ( or 1 out of three) Many of the Corps that have finished in 2nd place in his research data have finished in first place before. That alone skews the results. Crown has never finished in first. But I wish them well ( and others ) in their quest for a DCI Title, whatever the odds.

I shouldn't have used 1972, as the Blue Devils did not come on the scene in 1972, but a few years later. That said, once Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavs came on the DCI scene together, the DCI Titles are shared each year by one of these 3 Corps at an astounding rate... over 70% of the time.... that's more than 7 out of 10 times, DCI Titles go to one of these 3 Corps. These 3 Corps have a collective proficiency level that is quite remarkable.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I havn't met or heard of anyone that thinks that Crown " is a flash in the pan ". Have you heard this thinking out there in your travels ?

Yes, 2008 effected 2009. The Titleist Corps show invariably effects other Corps. For example, prior to last year, no Corps had a DM effected on the podium while directing. Phantom in 2008 had their DM replaced up on the podium in a creative and innovative way. As a result, here in 2009 other Corps copied that. Carolina Crown put a guard member during a portion of their show up on the DM podium. The Bluecoats put guard members up on the podium with the DM during a portion of their show as well. Not sure how many others might have put other section members up on the DM's podium during a portion of their show this year. In 2010, we can expect Corps to rethink their visuals and to utilize aspects of the visuals used by the Blue Devils here in 2009 that led to a title. The Titleist Corps always has some effect on the future designs of show with the other Corps below. As far as placement " sympathy" is concerned, there is no " sympathy " caption on the judging sheets regarding previous placements. And if we think the judging is rigged going in with a " sympathy " caption, then why stay for the scores and then complain with the placements later ?

Couldn't have said it any better, SKEK_ SOP.

Where is the " crowd caption " on the judging sheet ? Look, the Blue Devils accomplished precisely what they set out to accomplish. Probably more. It is rare when the " crowd ' favorite wins the DCI Title ( 2008 being one of those rare years ) Out of the last 20 years, you can count on one hand where the " Crowd " favorite was also the DCI Champion. You, me, and some others may wish that was different, but don't blame the Blue Devils for understanding the judging captions and knowing what it takes to win a title, and being able to execute that in such a fashion that they ran away with the Title in such convincing fashion. DCI is NOT primarily a musical medium anymore. And it's NOT weighted toward the musical side on the judging sheets. It's weighted toward the VISUAL. I'm guessing the frustration lies in the fact that some fans are simply not aware of how DCI scores shows regarding the musical and the visual. And this explains the frustration.

I doubt it. I don't see SC Vanguard winning a DCI Title this decade. I think they COULD. But I don't see it. If they did, it would be a heck of a year to go undefeated and do it. It's very hard to go undefeated now in DCI World Class competition. I don't foresee the Blue Devils organization ever having a year where they win both the World Class Championship AND the Open Class Championship AND going undefeated in both divisions for a 41-0 record in competition during the summer season. That's why this year was so special and why the Blue Devils winning both World and Open Class Titles and going undefeated in the process is hands down the story of 2009 in my opinion. Frankly, I don't think we'll see something like this again in the next 10 or 20 years. But who really knows. We'll just have to wait and see.

Since 1972, 85% of the DCI Titles have been won by just 3 Corps. Of the Silver medalists that went on to win the title the next year, less than 5% of them were NOT one of these three Corps ( BD, Cadets, Cavs ) or a Corps that has folded. The chances that a Corps.... even if it came in 2nd....... can win the following year, and that Corps is not the Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavaliers is remote. Not impossible. Just remote. The fact that Carolina Crown beat 2 out of the three Corps this year is commendable. Yes, the Cadets had a drummer fall down at Finals, and as a result their percussion scores tanked at Finals, and it impacted the Cadets visual score as well. Crown probably would have come in 3rd if the Cadets drummer did not fall down. That said, Crown has to be credited with 2nd place, not third. However, they would need to beat Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavalers ( at minimum ) to win the Title next year. Keep in mind they have never beaten the Blue Devils, and the Blue Devils " B " Corps won the Open class. Crown also had a lot of age outs this year. Since, 85% of the DCI Titles have been won by either the Blue Devils, Cadets, or Cavaliers, the chances of Carolina Crown beating these 3 Elite Corps of the activity AND all the others next year, is approximately 1 chance in 8, if we use history as our guide to determine their odds of doing so. Also, the chances of Crown falling a position or two next year is statistically much higher than their chances of moving up from 2nd to 1st and winning the DCI Title.

You are "coming to the table with the same or less level of knowledge/ background as anyone else " on the Guard, Visual Perf., GE Visual side. You took the time to spell out your qualifications. You have no more knowledge of guard, guard equipment work, flag, dance, visual design, visual execution, visual demand, visual ensemble, and so forth as the next person. You gave a previous post esarlier in the season in whch you wanted a complete overhaul of the judging captions to place more emphasis on things in your background, ie the musical. You don't deny this do you ? Again, no problem with this. My point is that you look at these shows thru a musical prism, not a visual prism. Again, not a problem. Just that you have a bias. A bias toward the musical side of shows. I have a bias too. Mine is toward the visual, toward the creative visual, to the execution of the visual. As such, I can see why when a drummer falls down ( Cadets ), or when spacing, interval, cover, etc are a bit off off ( Cadets, Crown )..... it means more to me than to you. I don't pretend to tell brass musicians whose brass line is " better", just which ones I " liked ". I also don't place much stock in Musicians telling me which Corps executed a better overal visual show re. guard, dance, equipment work, etc. And the Blue Devils understand how the scores are weighted more toward the visual these days. They designed and executed a brilliant show to win based upon the criteria that has been established that every Corps is familiar with. If you don't like their show fine, no problem. But to hold out your MUSIC quailifications, while laudable as they are, is no qualification to state with certainty that the placements at the top were wrong. Your MUSIC qulifications are frankly no better nor no worse than anyone else regarding the overall placements here. And lest we forget, the Blue Devils were undefeated in 26 competitions this year, and among a multiplicity of combinations of judging panels. But if you know better than all of them, in all their captions, then good for you. No problem. It's your opinion. And thanks for expressing it.

We don't ( or shouldn't ) judge a review by a poster's ( "qualificatiions " ). Each poster brings their own unique experiences, trainining, etc to the review. If someone marched or was trained in ( say ) guard, we take with a grain of salt their review of the ( say ) lower brass performance in the show. Some never marched. Some marched and did percussion, but wouldn't know a thing about pitch and intonation in the brass line. Some come with an axe to grind, or with a Corps to prop up. Somebody that has a Masters's Degree in Music is no more " qualified " to judge guard as anyone else. But here's the thing. So what ? It doesn't matter. It's just his opinion, anyway. The judging panels have qualified judges with experience and training in each of the Corps sections. Peppitone doesn't know squat about Guard. So he didn't judge Guard. He judged percussion. And left the guard evaluation up to the Guard judge that is trained and experienced in guard. This OP loved the brass line of Crown. And guess what ?, so didn't the brass judges in Indy. He liked Phantom's brass line. Guess what ? relative to others, so didn't the brass judges in Indy. But as for guard, visual, pit, percussion, well, the OP gave his opinion, even though like many of us, he's not all that" qualified" in these areas. But that's cool too. None of us are " qualified " across the board in brass, percussion, visual design and execution, guard, dance, etc. But these " qualifications " don't matter really. Posters are telling us what and who they liked and didn't like. And that's cool. It's when they get into the placement and scores realm that we just need to relax and recognize the limitations inherent in one person judging ALL the sections and ALL the captions and telling us with certitude who should have placed where. Posters should be free to do this placement and scoring, but we can take it or leave it as well.

Haha....he's certainly entitled to his opinion. But the fact of the matter is the Blue Devils were undefeated this year , and by Finals, not only did they win, they won convincingly. The score was not that close as they dominated with this victory margin. And the BD's performed before all combinations of judging panels throughout the year. It didn't matter what combinations of panels used, they won, and they won with any and all of the collective panels utilized. The Blue Devils flat out dominated this year. The poster also looks at this thru a musical, not a visual prism. He's on record as stating he believes in an overhaul of the judging system to assign more points to the musical. That's his bias. He thinks the BD should have come in 3rd. Yet the Cadets had a drummer fall down, and by all accounts, their execution in the percussion line was off after this. And BD's Guard is superb. He also thought Phantom should have placed higher, but their visual program and guard were not as strong as the Corps that beat Phantom. Again, he is looking at this through his musical lens. Which is fine. But look, he's entitled to HIS opinion here without rancor, nor hostility. I think it's cool that he took the time to tell us what he thought, and I commend him for taking the time to let us know his personal take on the show and the Corps.

Look on the bright side. What if a lot of people got sick at INT this summer ? Who here wants to look at a lot of holes at INT ? How unpleasant would that be ?

Say what we will about Scott Stewart, but no Madison Scouts Corps would ever leave the fans feeling " confused " about what it was they just saw and heard after a Madison Scouts performance. If you didn't " get it ", then frankly you needed to check your hearing or get a doctor or nurse to quickly determine your breathing and see if you had any pulse.