Phantom1701

Well said. And really, when we don't like a show or elements of it, the criticism should always be directed at the staff/design team and not the kids. All of the kids in this activity work their tails off.

Hate to hear stuff like this, especially with my kid on tour with another corps.

Still looking. Might take 3 and 2 or 4 and 1 even, so if you have something to offer, please let me know. Thx.

Looking for 5 tix in a row, preferably on an end, but will consider just about anything.

Felt the same after seeing them in Daytona. Cool show, but just can't see how they are beating Cadets in Music.

Have you actually heard Cadets live this year? Having just seen both back to back in Daytona I can tell you that Cadets volume was as loud or louder than Coats. And what's remarkable is that Cadets are playing way more notes than Coats, so to still have enough left in the day at the end of the show to crank out the volume they did was unbelievable.

Saw them live last night and was VERY impressed! Like some others here, I have not really cared for a Bones show in quite a while. After seeing them last night I feel like they are a virtual lock for a top 12 spot. And with the right amount of cleaning, tweaking and progression, this has the chance to be a top 7-9 show, no question. Also, from an entertainment perspective, I probably enjoyed them most. Not saying they were anywhere near the caliber of Cadets or Coats on the night (both were mind-blowing), but I was highly entertained and was impressed by their energy tonight. Hope they keep it up and I will be rooting for them to do well as the season goes on.

Pretty sure there was at least one in Orlando in 2012, because we took some kids from the band to go see it.

I don't disagree with the relative numbers, but it's basically a 3 horse race every year now. So at least this way 5-12 have a realistic shot at something. Who am I kidding...it's like a 1 horse race these days. ;-)

Since everyone seems to be referencing WGI anyway, what about this breaking up the divisions like WGI does in the form of World, Open, etcs, but with a 3rd hybrid division. For instance: -World Performance Class- Unique judging sheets. More theatrical centered show concepts with judging system that encompasses compulsory elements such as specific guard equipment/weapons/tosses, length of overall show and brass instrumentation. Only 50% of the music has to be performer generated (non-electronic based). Less requirement (50% or less) for actual formation marching and more emphasis on dance, body movement, theater staging, etc. No limit to the number or size of props. -World Class - Unique judging sheets. Traditional marching show concepts that encompasses primarily (80%+) performer generated music through traditional brass and percussion instruments. Emphasis of marching forms and movement while playing. Limit on size and number of props. Compulsory elements in the form of length of show, brass/percussion instrumentation and use of guard equipment/tosses. -Open Class - Same as World except less requirements on the length of the show, number of props, and guard equipment/tosses that are required to max each box. Obviously groups can choose to do more, but like in WGi risk getting "bumped up" to the "World Class" if they are overachieving as compared their peers in this division. Obviously the individual class requirements could be anything. I'm just throwing these ideas out there for the sake of discussion and what separate classes could look like that reward very different things. Because let's face it, in the modern era most corps will do little more than be the warmup acts for the big 3, maybe big 4 or 5. Because I can't ever see Phantom Regiment doing a show like Downside Up (at least not very well). And if that is going to be the standard, then the activity is going to lose whatever competitive flavor it has left, which isn't much these days. At least not without the more traditional corps abandoning their traditions and conform to the new standards. So perhaps it is time to start thinking about separating classes by design, elements, sheets, and overall intent.

I think that this has already been happening to some degree, where music is becoming the afterthought to some of these shows. Even at the high school level. This years champion in a state and class I won't mention didn't play a single note through their winds/horns for the first 3 minutes and then barely anything after that for the last 5 minutes of their show. And when they did play notes they were more or less standing still or playing solos in the midst of body movement, scatter drill and prop manipulation. They took 1st in Music from both judges. Granted what they played was clean, but pretty easy to clean a few bars of music while mostly standing still. So the WGI influence is there and is definitely moving into DCI as well, no question. To your other point, the corps with the biggest budgets are generally the only ones to make it in the top 6. The rest are all just vying for the last 6-12 spots. And I don't see that changing anytime soon. So DCI has basically turned into a mini elite club at the top 1-5. You could even argue just 1-3.

I think the west tour hurts a little, simply because the extra travel time eats up a good bit what could be change/cleaning time if they were marching in the Midwest or Northeast. So we'll have to see what happens as the season progresses and the travel space gets a little more compact. With that said, I'm a fan of JC Superstar, so love that they are doing this show! My daughter also knows a member of their guard, so we will definitely be pulling for Madison this year.

Go Heat Wave!!

Correct. I think there was a desire to go, but only being their 2nd season I think they were strongly "encouraged" by DCI to take the slow and steady approach. Perhaps next year.

It seems to have been a bit of a rough week for most of Open Class corps score wise. So may be more indicative of the current state of things in OC rather than anything on Legends part. Also, they may be implementing changes based on judges comments from the first few shows that will help them in the long run, but may be affecting performance scores in the short term.

Brasso, I don't recall anyone on this thread asking for your sympathy. And while I won't presume to speak for others, I can tell you that I am neither frustrated with Crown's score, nor anyone else's for that matter. Simply pointing out that there may be training and/or experience gaps with judges at some of the regional events that could be contributing to score volatility. If you think that's a good thing, or not, or don't care, then great. You are free to feel however you want to feel about that. But this is a forum to discuss thoughts and ideas related to the activity, is it not? So perhaps in expressing your own ideas and opinions you can do so without trying to disparage your fellow board member with such overblown condescension. Fair?

I'm not Crown fan, but their score seems like BS unless they had a terrible run through tonight. My guess is that is not the case. Just more evidence that DCI still has tremendous inconsistencies in their judging. Either it's a training issue or lack of balance between veteran and rookie judges at a single event.

To me, the answer to the OP's question about who can be the next top 3 caliber corps not currently on anyone's radar, is the one who can take a financial quantum leap. The perennial top 3-4 corps typically are the ones that have the biggest budgets and best fund-raising capabilities. Are there exceptions here and there, sure, but ultimately the consistent success of BD, Cadets, Crown, and SCV over the years has largely been in part to their ability to generate operating capital. Of course even these groups struggle at times, as PR and some other top 6-10 corps have recently, but it's not hard to see the correlation between consistent success and access to sufficient operating capital. Star of Indiana is probably the best example of what money can do for a corps. Star was started in 1985/6 by Bill Cook, a wealthy business man and fan of the activity. Star made finals their very first year and had a championship just 5 years later. Why was that possible? Money. They were able to attract the best and brightest staff of the day and offered reduced marching dues for the members as compared to other corps. A lethal combination. So perhaps a wealthy person or group can infuse some serious cash into a corps like Crossmen, Legends, Academy, etc. and propel them to new heights. Otherwise it is a slow, slow climb to the top (ask Crown, Bluecoats). But even then you still have to unseat those perennial, well-funded powerhouses at the top. And once you get there, that's just the beginning. Try staying there year after year. So many things have to go right for you, but not the least of which is your ability to fund-raise and keep up with BD, Cadets, Crown, and others. Now...none of this takes away from the X factor that these corps have such as history, tradition, alumni groups, etc. that attract the top talent year in and year out. All of that is critically important. But with respect to what it would take to propel a corps from the present ranks of the Quarter-finalists/Open Class Corps to a top 3 corps? Money and lots of it.

Well, not being known by "all" as you say, if judges and fans still do not have access to them. And I'm not convinced that the judges couldn't see the full recaps if they really wanted to. So it may just be that the fans are the only group involved in the activity not getting to see them. If true, then DCI made this move solely to prevent fans from complaining, bashing, or negatively commenting about Judge X or Judge Y or this forum and others of the like. Admittedly the attacks do go over the top at times and accusations of judges bias is certainly an issue, whether founded or unfounded. Still, DCI should take note that (as with all sports and activities of a competitive or performance nature) the fans are the ones paying the bills. So if at the end of the day we are the only ones being left in the dark, then it could have a negative financial impact on the activity in years to come. I sincerely hope this is not the case. To your point though (and well received) provided the corps and staff are getting to see the full recaps and ordinals, then this would allow them to make changes based upon how they are stacking up against their peers. So glad to hear that at least that much is happening. Still, I do hope they reverse their decision and allow "all" to see the full recaps.

Not for nothing, the whole idea of not showing the recaps is a bit childish in my opinion. Especially for this activity where the vast number of performers in World Class corps are over 18, and therefore, adults. So why the need to play these coy games? I teach a high school drumline and at every competition the full scores and recaps are available to each band director. Nothing is hidden to protect anyone or prevent bias from week to week. And the results are also put on the governing body's website for all to access and see. So if high school band judges, directors and kids can handle it, why can't DCI, it's fans, performers and judges? And for those who might say "who cares, it's just high school". Placements at these regional competitions have an effect on state championship performance times, and in many cases, final placements. So it matters a great deal to those involved in those programs. Point being, if they can handle it, then DCI and all its various components can handle it.

Some nice moments in this year's show, but want to see the finals week product before making any comparisions to previous years.

I personally miss the recaps and find it has taken something out of the season for me. Of course the kids and performances are what ultimately matter most, but I enjoy seeing the numbers and which sections are performing the best for each corps.

I've been saying for 2 years that the Gwaltney experiment is not working. And taken a lot of heat for saying so. And it's not to take away anything from him or his WGI success. But for whatever reason the marriage between he and PR just isn't working. I think Crown proved tonight that you can't win DCI without a top 4 drum line at least. 7th, 9th just isn't going to cut it. So a change is needed, because we haven't finished higher than 7th in percussion since the Rennick's left.

The fallacy with this type of reasoning is that it assumes all of the other caption scores will remain the same, except percussion. But just as a different percussion judge can mean a few tenths here and there, so can it for the other captions. So yes, they can make it up in theory, but they may lose it elsewhere. Or gain elsewhere even.

I'm a huge Phantom Phan and really loved their show this year....so I hate to even go in this direction. But there has been some pretty strong debate regarding the whole Rennick/Gwaltney change. I'm in the camp that doesn't feel that a change in caption head should necessarily equal 2 back to back 7th place seasons, but many feel otherwise. It is interesting though that in this case staff changes equaled a positive for the corps. Hopefully next year the percussion scores will at least be more competitive so that they can make a serious challenge for the gold. Either way 2012 was a great year and a solid program that was appreciated by most, if not all fans.