Louisville - July 11, 2007

[NakedEye]

As far as your dislike for the narration, I'm not sure where you were going with the 'we hate basics' comment. For one, its one kid saying "i hate basics", just to counter someone else who likes it. There are plenty of people who hate basics in corps, and there are plenty of people that enjoy different parts of their day in a rehearsal. I think the message being conveyed here is perfectly normal, and about 10 times better than the crap they started the year with (we got in at 6am and blahblahblah). Also, how is the image portrayed in the closer the 'weakest' image. I think some people are uncomfortable with it because frankly it's true to more people in more ways than we admit. How many people that march drum corps will ever do something else in their life that they can be the best in the world at? How many people say they march corps because they get to feel like rock stars night after night, a feeling that they would never get in the real world because they lack the talent, looks, or social abilities to do so? While daniel's story may not fit everybody, there is no reason to demand that it should. I'd be curious to hear how you would go about better designing this section to accomodate the same idea. People feel like theyre being talked down to in this section, but guess what....we're a bunch of people that sit on a message board arguing about people that wear silly uniforms running around the field making pictures and playing music at the same time for some reason. If thats not the definition of dork, then I dont know what is.

No show is supposed to reach everyone in the same possible way. I dont think anyone is trying to say that everyone that's ever marched corps was a reject before, but im willing to bet we all either know someone like that, or we are someone like that. People on this board have already shared their stories, and im willing to bet a lot more could.

This is a great response, and addresses what seems to be a bit of the "he who protests too much" element that accompanies some of the more vitriolic rants toward certain sections of the narration. A lot of the public views drum corps/band as the dorkiest thing ever, and yes we ARE all dorks to them, but no matter what you do in life, someone will think it isn't cool. The larger message is you either bow to public opinion about something you love or you say **** them and work to be even better at it. If you love to run around a field playing music or throwing stuff in the air, this is the place for you.

I see this section as more a celebration of the courage to be yourself and find the right spot for you with like-minded people than any show of weakness. Really, their whole show reinforces this idea. Martha Graham did a lot of controversial stuff, and the fact that they absolutely structured their whole show around voice, after being constantly pummeled for using it a lot last year is another example. "You don't like it? Well, we will do it MORE then, because we feel it has some merit."

People that attempt a different direction often meet with unpopularity and resistance. The choice becomes whether to let that influence you or not. Interesting stuff, and I think a lot of how you interpret it depends on how often you've taken that road yourself. Some like to be in the pack, others outside of it.

I can't wait to see how the show continues to evolve.

[euponitone]

I had a great feeling performing with my class A corps. But you could never say I "felt like a rock star." This is an example of the Cadets promoting the top corps and certainly not speaking for evryones experience. It means many things to many people and I don't like the way they try to quatify it and say this is what drum corps is for everyone.

Drum corps was one of the best experiences in my life. However you cannot say it was my last great accomplishment; I don't lack talent to do other great things. I've performed with many other outstanding groups and musicians over the years. Each experience is different. Not all are as great as drum corps but some are and some have been even more so but for different reasons. Many corps members go on to be VERY successful as professional musicians.

I know an former Trooper who gigs in Nashville and tours with country bands.

Please don't tell me what MY drum corps experience WAS or SHOULD HAVE been.

To be fair, i dont think I did, and I dont think the cadets are either. Everyone is different, noone is the same, but here, we are a team :P

[jwillis35]

As far as your dislike for the narration, I'm not sure where you were going with the 'we hate basics' comment. For one, its one kid saying "i hate basics", just to counter someone else who likes it. There are plenty of people who hate basics in corps, and there are plenty of people that enjoy different parts of their day in a rehearsal. I think the message being conveyed here is perfectly normal, and about 10 times better than the crap they started the year with (we got in at 6am and blahblahblah). Also, how is the image portrayed in the closer the 'weakest' image. I think some people are uncomfortable with it because frankly it's true to more people in more ways than we admit. How many people that march drum corps will ever do something else in their life that they can be the best in the world at? How many people say they march corps because they get to feel like rock stars night after night, a feeling that they would never get in the real world because they lack the talent, looks, or social abilities to do so? While daniel's story may not fit everybody, there is no reason to demand that it should. I'd be curious to hear how you would go about better designing this section to accomodate the same idea. People feel like theyre being talked down to in this section, but guess what....we're a bunch of people that sit on a message board arguing about people that wear silly uniforms running around the field making pictures and playing music at the same time for some reason. If thats not the definition of dork, then I dont know what is.

I appreciate your excellent response. I guess my complaint, and I haven't seen the show in a long time, is that I thought their show was to somehow portray the drum corps experience through the NPR "This I Believe..." segment and to characterize what is so special about drum corps and what we believe it offers young people. To that extent I think they probably have done this, but my problem is that they approached it from a standpoint of weakness instead of strength.

I realize people think we are dorks, geeks, what have you. But I don't think those who are really involved think of themselves this way. Those who march drum corps are talented, hard-working, and while they don't always like basics, most kids who march value the hard work or they wouldn't be there. Drum corps is the epitamy of self-dedication, percerveirence, team work and high achievement, and it is the Marine Corps of the marching activity. These are tough individuals who expect to work and they do. They are not weak minded, and while some have certainly been made fun of in school or perhaps they didn't feel like they fit in, I don't think these are things we need to highlight because such life stories exist in any activity. Why is drum corps any different in that regard. We need to show what we do that is unique, and we need to promote our artform from a position of strength. The Cadets had a perfect opportunity to do this with this show, but instead chose to spew out comments that relate more to political activism, like "We are different, yet we are the same, we are human beings" and "I believe in choice. I believe I have the right to choose." These comments can be interpreted in many ways, and there are many in the audience, such a myself [the weirdo that I am :)] that will either seek greater meaning to those words or I will fill in the blanks myself and ultimately be puzzled as to why they are used. Their message comes across, to me, as a bit too liberal and lovey-dovy, and I am not sure how it introduces a show theme meant to advocate the "what is great" about drum corps. And I tend to be pretty middle-of-the-road when it comes to politics, and there is plenty of liberal in me to go along with the mostly conservative nature, but these initial comments could very well be offending many in the audience.

The fact is that we don't always have the right to chose. And we are not all the same, even when working toward team goals. Our right to choose must also be informed by desired result and the goal for individual as well as the common good of society. If you steal, you have made a choice, but not all choice is good, and the freedoms of those you stole from were stepped on because of such choice. Often times when we choose, we must do so by thinking of others first, and not ourselves. Our desire to serve must be as great as our desire for service, but freedom of choice has proved to be a kink in the armor of what used to be called sacrifice, largely because popular culture has told us to be accpeting and tolerant of everything and anything, and this is all it takes to make choice sound so good and heart-warming. In the long run, choice is a difficult process, and only the strong who do their research and are aware of society's common needs and the self's common bonds can make the right choice. But this must be presented from a stanpoint of strength, not weakness, because the weak always have an excuse, and they tend to put themselves at the mercy of the "misedry loves company" crowd. My dad used to always say, "there are two kinds of people in the world: those who complain and blame everyone else for their lotten lives, and there are those who get things done and do so fully understanding life's challenges, and they do it with a smile."

I think of the later as the kind of person who marches drum corps, regardless of what others may think of our geeky nature, the former is what the Cadets are projecting in their narration. The rehearsal stuff in the 2nd tune is fine for the most part.

JW

Edited July 12, 2007 by jwillis35

[gbass598]

In all honesty, narration doesn't bother me if it used properly. There are parts of the Cadets show that work well with the narration, like that part in the opener when they talk about each section.

The part that really bothers me more than anything is the "ballad" section of the show where the horn player tries to explain to us how he never fit in growing and knew that he was "different" before he found music. I feel like they are trying to go for the Charlie Sheen like monologue at the end of Platoon with Adagio for Strings playing in the background for effect but it just comes off really cheesy to me. The way he speaks it and the phrases he uses makes me feel like he is about to tell me he is "coming out of the closet" instead of how drum corps made a huge impact in his life and the gave him the ability to fit in. i understand what kind of effect they are going for but it just isn't happening.

[Fan of the Arts]

This is a great response, and addresses what seems to be a bit of the "he who protests too much" element that accompanies some of the more vitriolic rants toward certain sections of the narration. A lot of the public views drum corps/band as the dorkiest thing ever, and yes we ARE all dorks to them, but no matter what you do in life, someone will think it isn't cool. The larger message is you either bow to public opinion about something you love or you say **** them and work to be even better at it. If you love to run around a field playing music or throwing stuff in the air, this is the place for you.

I see this section as more a celebration of the courage to be yourself and find the right spot for you with like-minded people than any show of weakness. Really, their whole show reinforces this idea. Martha Graham did a lot of controversial stuff, and the fact that they absolutely structured their whole show around voice, after being constantly pummeled for using it a lot last year is another example. "You don't like it? Well, we will do it MORE then, because we feel it has some merit."

People that attempt a different direction often meet with unpopularity and resistance. The choice becomes whether to let that influence you or not. Interesting stuff, and I think a lot of how you interpret it depends on how often you've taken that road yourself. Some like to be in the pack, others outside of it.

I can't wait to see how the show continues to evolve.

Thank you. This show will evolve into something special.

Another *NEWSFLASH* ladies and gentlemen; you have beaten this idea of narration into the grave and have brought it back to life more than you should. It's time to let it go -- that's better than saying, "get over it".

Reality check: Cadets are very good (with or without narration)

Reality check: Cadets have a less than stellar guard -- but they work their butts off!

Reality check: Cadets are in a dog fight with Cavies and Blue Devils

Reality check: Cadets (IMO) will win their 10th World Championship

Irving

Fan of the Arts

[euponitone]

I appreciate your excellent response. I guess my complaint, and I haven't seen the show in a long time, is that I thought their show was to somehow portray the drum corps experience through the NPR "This I Believe..." segment and to characterize what is so special about drum corps and what we believe it offers young people. To that extent I think they probably have done this, but my problem is that they approached it from a standpoint of weakness instead of strength.

I realize people think we are dorks, geeks, what have you. But I don't think those who are really involved think of themselves this way. Those who march drum corps are talented, hard-working, and while they don't always like basics, most kids who march value the hard work or they wouldn't be there. Drum corps is the epitamy of self-dedication, percerveirence, team work and high achievement, and it is the Marine Corps of the marching activity. These are tough individuals who expect to work and they do. They are not weak minded, and while some have certainly been made fun of in school or perhaps they didn't feel like they fit in, I don't think these are things we need to highlight because such life stories exist in any activity. Why is drum corps any different in that regard. We need to show what we do that is unique, and we need to promote our artform from a position of strength. The Cadets had a perfect opportunity to do this with this show, but instead chose to spew out comments that relate more to political activism, like "We are different, yet we are the same, we are human beings" and "I believe in choice. I believe I have the right to choose." These comments can be interpreted in many ways, and there are many in the audience, such a myself [the weirdo that I am :)] that will either seek greater meaning to those words or I will fill in the blanks myself and ultimately be puzzled as to why they are used. Their message comes across, to me, as a bit too liberal and lovey-dovy, and I am not sure how it introduces a show theme meant to advocate the "what is great" about drum corps. And I tend to be pretty middle-of-the-road when it comes to politics, and there is plenty of liberal in me to go along with the mostly conservative nature, but these initial comments could very well be offending many in the audience.

The fact is that we don't always have the right to chose. And we are not all the same, even when working toward team goals. Our right to choose must also be informed by desired result and the goal for individual as well as the common good of society. If you steal, you have made a choice, but not all choice is good, and the freedoms of those you stole from were stepped on because of such choice. Often times when we choose, we must do so by thinking of others first, and not ourselves. Our desire to serve must be as great as our desire for service, but freedom of choice has proved to be a kink in the armor of what used to be called sacrifice, largely because popular culture has told us to be accpeting and tolerant of everything and anything, and this is all it takes to make choice sound so good and heart-warming. In the long run, choice is a difficult process, and only the strong who do their research and are aware of society's common needs and the self's common bonds can make the right choice. But this must be presented from a stanpoint of strength, not weakness, because the weak always have an excuse, and they tend to put themselves at the mercy of the "misedry loves company" crowd. My dad used to always say, "there are two kinds of people in the world: those who complain and blame everyone else for their lotten lives, and there are those who get things done and do so fully understanding life's challenges, and they do it with a smile."

I think of the later as the kind of person who marches drum corps, regardless of what others may think of our geeky nature, the former is what the Cadets are projecting in their narration. The rehearsal stuff in the 2nd tune is fine for the most part.

JW

Haha...oh man, I had a feeling this would be an interesting post. Im not even going to try arguing with most of what you said because its kind of overwhelming, and correct in many cases. Without nit-picking through your post to much, I think their may have been a good reason why they didnt portray a 'stronger' idea, or sense of the kids in corps. For one, programmatically, they need a down/emotional time. Since they have very little ballad to speak of. I dont think the cantus piece would be very emotion if daniel was like - "im the man, i love hard work, were the best at what we do". In that vein, I think such an approach to the show would come off as extremely elistist (which is already being said about them). Can you imagine the comments if they spent 2/3 of the show (leaving the middle) talking about how incredible drum corps is, how strong their members are, how awesome their work ethic is, how much they acheive their goals, and so on?? I thought it was bad enough in the old narration when they used to brag about how early the were 'on the field' rehearsing.

I also feel like the sob story in the closer isnt really much of a sob story. So what...the kid talks for a little about how he didnt fit in...after that its all good stuff. I think the line about something 'incredible' happenning when he plays his trumpet is a little over the top, but there's some funny stuff in there, especially the "i think i made the right decision" - followed by insane drill move and drum break. Things like this speak volumes to myself and others, and I think it portrays that little bit of arrogance we have in drum corps - like HEY, check this #### out!!!. Im also very curious to see how the new ending adds to or changes this idea.

Some of the other points you bring up are great, but i think (at your own admission) you may be reading into things too much. I think its fairly certain what george hopkins wants us to think about choice and innovation, as his ideas on the matter are pretty out in the open. As someone who has sat through 3 and a half years of his meetings and talks with the kids, I can say pretty confidently that he doesnt even touch on political or religious subjects. His concept of choice is more about the individual's path, and it's often focused on college, and career choices since thats what most of the members of the cadets are facing. While you are free to draw your own conclusions from any show, this is one time where i wouldnt bother looking much into it past that.

At the end of the day, as fun as it is to debate how else they could have done this show, I'm probably more interesting in talking about how they are doing in terms of displaying what they have already decided to do (which is of course fluid as well). It's been excellent talking with you though :)

[Richard]

To me, Hopkins created this show concept to make drum corps more marketable to the marching band community. I recently read an old interview (1999) in which George speaks to the fact that there are 2 million kids in marching bands and only 6000 in drum corps and his primary focus is to make the activity more appealing to those 2 million. You can really see that this is his modus operandi by the rule changes he's proposed in the past. Now, I completely agree with his thinking; the future of the activity depends on the interest of those 2 million band kids. Rather than make this a dissertation of Hopkins vision for drum corps, I'll try to stick to my original point.

It seems to me that this show is really designed to hit home with all those band kids out there. First of all, its a total ######## show, which is always a good way to create a drum corps fan. But in regards to narration, they talk about rehearsing segments repeatedly and basics block and other things band kids can easily relate to. Then the closing segment seems to be an attempt to reach all the kids out there that are just like the narrator, and tries to explain to them that they can really achieve something amazing. In fact, I think that's the overriding theme that George Hopkins is trying to get across to these band kids: This activity is incredible and YOU can do it!

Will it work? Who knows. From my dealings teaching a pretty competitive high school band, there is no reaching at least 50% of them.

I also believe that having a 'band kid' target audience is why so many drum corps enthusiasts can't stand this show. The narration past the opening feels so corny and not representative of drum corps that it does not appeal to many DCI fans. I would be interested to find out how many DCI fans who are not Cadet alums or big Cadet fans have heard the narration and said "wow, that is great. I really enjoy this." I'd wager not many.

This is also why I don't feel like this increased narration is killing the activity. I would be astounded if you saw any shows like this out of the Cavaliers, SCV or Phantom Regiment in the next 20 years. Its not something like Bb horns or 135 members where you need them to be competitive, its just an available option that I don't see as being too appealing to most corps over the long haul.

In short, I see this whole show (and most things Hopkins does) as an attempt to bring more kids to the activity, which is not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination.

[euponitone]

To me, Hopkins created this show concept to make drum corps more marketable to the marching band community. I recently read an old interview (1999) in which George speaks to the fact that there are 2 million kids in marching bands and only 6000 in drum corps and his primary focus is to make the activity more appealing to those 2 million. You can really see that this is his modus operandi by the rule changes he's proposed in the past. Now, I completely agree with his thinking; the future of the activity depends on the interest of those 2 million band kids. Rather than make this a dissertation of Hopkins vision for drum corps, I'll try to stick to my original point.

It seems to me that this show is really designed to hit home with all those band kids out there. First of all, its a total ######## show, which is always a good way to create a drum corps fan. But in regards to narration, they talk about rehearsing segments repeatedly and basics block and other things band kids can easily relate to. Then the closing segment seems to be an attempt to reach all the kids out there that are just like the narrator, and tries to explain to them that they can really achieve something amazing. In fact, I think that's the overriding theme that George Hopkins is trying to get across to these band kids: This activity is incredible and YOU can do it!

Will it work? Who knows. From my dealings teaching a pretty competitive high school band, there is no reaching at least 50% of them.

I also believe that having a 'band kid' target audience is why so many drum corps enthusiasts can't stand this show. The narration past the opening feels so corny and not representative of drum corps that it does not appeal to many DCI fans. I would be interested to find out how many DCI fans who are not Cadet alums or big Cadet fans have heard the narration and said "wow, that is great. I really enjoy this." I'd wager not many.

This is also why I don't feel like this increased narration is killing the activity. I would be astounded if you saw any shows like this out of the Cavaliers, SCV or Phantom Regiment in the next 20 years. Its not something like Bb horns or 135 members where you need them to be competitive, its just an available option that I don't see as being too appealing to most corps over the long haul.

In short, I see this whole show (and most things Hopkins does) as an attempt to bring more kids to the activity, which is not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination.

<= one of the most unbiased posts ive ever read

[Richard]

<= one of the most unbiased posts ive ever read

Legit? I do make an attempt to keep an open mind

[euponitone]

Legit? I do make an attempt to keep an open mind

yes indeed...