No Love for JAZZ ?

[Robert Kirby]

Ok... so.

SNIP

"3. Cleaning up jazz doesn't make it lose passion or edge. There's nothing more impressive than a soli section (especially saxes) where the players are in the pocket, grooving with the same articulation and expression. And it's good because it's clean.... Clean does not equal bad in jazz. I think where this argument comes in in drum corps today is that when many corps "clean" jazz they do so at the expense of watering articulations and expressiveness. That's when jazz loses its passion - when you water the articulations. Not when it's played cleanly."

About a million years ago, I read an interview with Art Blakey in DownBeat. He said "You can play just in front of the beat, and that #### swings. And you can play just after the beat, and that #### swigs. But you can play right on the beat, and THAT #### SWINGS." Boy do I miss him.

Robert,

making his first post to DCP

[BD Raggamuffin]

And oh yeah ...

Best jazz off the line - Ya Gotta Try by BD in 89. That was a swinging, hot opener.

HH

Very fun!!!

Just look at 1991. You had Blue Devils performing a great jazz show (Conversations in Jazz) and Crossmen doing the Pat Metheny Suite.

My opinion is the visual design of today's shows just doesn't fit a good old fashion jazz show. Listen to those runs the BD hornline plays in 1991. Would be hard to fit a visual package around that with the demand of today's visual design. That's my opinion, at least.

I think we moved pretty well playing that show, but... IMO, BD has proven that they can win, and win, and win... I would love to see them take a year now and just forget about trying to win. Just play some hot and swanky-### jazz like the old days. Scale down the visual demand and just play some loud and demanding jazz charts and really let the hornline rip! They might not win- but SO WHAT!!!

In my opinion, the best jazz corps out there in div 1 is the Crossmen (check out the 2002-04 shows). Though the Blue Devils used to be masters of it, jazz has a certain roughness to it by nature. Once you've cleaned it up too much, which is necessary for DCI, it looses that edge. Check out some older Blue Devils shows though - they used to really get out there and walk that line.

I agree here too. It seems to me that parts get super watered down and almost clean to the point where they lose that edgy, alive passion. I'd also like to hear more flowing lines of melody, less chopped- up charts and running visual. I think this would give these super talented brass players a chance to let it fly, and I think it would bring back that edge that seems to be missing. I'll still go watch DC, and I'll still be amazed the awesome drill and the talent that these kids bring to the activity, but I would just like to hear more actual "Pegasus" melody than I heard this year. Just my humble opinion.

Makes sense to me....I heard a recent top 6 DCI brass instructor say that many groups these days are trying so hard to be "musically correct" that they lose the "performance edge" that is essential for jazz to have heart and soul.

He said that many shows are jazz "influenced" but they don't really have that "edge"

the way Blue Devils, Madison, and Suncoast and others had it in the 80s and early 90s.

Not that there aren't great performances out there, it's just that they are a bit too sanitized.

I like using Rock guitarists as an analogy. There are guys who are insanely technical compared

to Jimmy Hendrix or Clapton...but those guys could make you FEEL that music in your soul!

I don't want to start any arguments, so I will preface this by stressing that this is just MY OPINION. Again, it seems to me that many shows today are lacking heart and soul when compared to the '80's and '90's. Again, I think the kids' talent level and professionalism is outstanding today, so this is in no way a slam against the current MM's. I would just like to see shows designed in a way that is less focused on technical perfection and blinding fast drill so there would be raw expression ranging from ultra laid-back swanky blues to rattle-the-stands impact points. ( (a la '88 BD) )

You could play a score with perfect technique and technical expertise, but if there's no soul, no passion, no emotion driving it, it's simply good music. *golf clap*

Exactly.

Jazz is distinct from the swing style that many of you are talking about (or at least it can be). Listen to old recordings of Channel One or Strawberry Soup - are they fun to listen to? You bet!!! However, they aren't as clean as they could be, but THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE. The problem with DCI is that they had to come up with a way to compare Wind Ensemble pieces with Jazz charts - it's too subjective to simply say, "perform the piece in the style to the best of your ability." Jazz should be raucous and out there on the edge, and never played in the same way you would play a Chamber Ensemble piece...but what do I know.

I think you know what you're talking about.

hahaha yeah i totally agree, those kids are basically robots because the music they play is actually on the move now.....theyre too busy worrying about stuff like "moving fast," "having good posture and marching technique," and "performing exciting drill" that you very very rarely see any passion on the field anymore.

I wouldn't say they are ROBOTS, but the demand of the visual certainly takes away from the passion side of the music, IMO.

Edited October 13, 2007 by BD Raggamuffin

[727driver]

I have to take a little objection to the opinion that you can't move quick and play good jazz. 93's BD production was spent at pretty ridiculous tempos throughout, and while the DESIGN might not have been all that great, the TEMPOS where surely comparable to what you'd play today. I see no reason why a corps couldn't get away with playing real jazz (see 02 BD) and march an up to date visual program as well. It just seems like the musical fads need to cycle through their usual trends, and they will eventually lead back to corps playing jazz. Leave something alone long enough and it eventually becomes cutting edge again.... :)

[bawker]

I'd love to see a corps come out with as many solos and solis as BD 1993....that show was hot, and I never get tired of listening to it.

While I respect the BD of today, there should be more than sops playing quintuple C in the Downey arrangements of today....baritones and mellos can do it too, you know? :P

[BD Raggamuffin]

I'd love to see a corps come out with as many solos and solis as BD 1993....that show was hot, and I never get tired of listening to it.

While I respect the BD of today, there should be more than sops playing quintuple C in the Downey arrangements of today....baritones and mellos can do it too, you know? :P

Agree 100%. I also respect the BD of today, but they need more screamin' solo's. I went to march BD because I thought they were GODS. (I was 16 years old). To me, the hornline was simply better than any other. Other corps would put out some great hornlines, but, year after year BD just blew me away. They had this wide open, deep, dark tonality. And the JAZZ! This was unmatched by any other corps ( certain Madison years being the exception), IMO. Then they had the soloists, who I thought must be at least 35 years old. I love today's BD, but I doubt that if Iwas choosing a place to march today if I would bother going all the way to Concord. I know the talent in all the corps' members and staff has caught up, and hornlines have gotten so much better, but BD no longer has my automatic, undisputed vote for the absolute best, this is THE ####! , choice of hornlines. I think the lack of soloists, and the lack of jazz is the reason.

[silvertrombone]

Why no love for jazz ? Doesn't anyone who gets a degree in music enjoy AMERICA's music.....JAZZ anymore ?

Curious to see what you all think.......

F-blues are great--my favoritest!

Okay, so while this iis my first year in the DCI subculture, (i know a lot of you have just stopped reading LOL ) I can totally understand this. The medium lends itself to Jazz much more. I mean, I love when the hornline blasts, but there were few who actually preformed that way this season. The closest I remeember is Bluecoats program. But yeah, I can definatly see enjoying getting my face blown off in a high energy jazz program.

Blue, I love your rodent! Just had to say!

Okay, picture if you will...Blue Devils coming off of the line blowing...this!

I am soooo there!!! B)

Hey, that 70's show! I think I played that at North Texas. Kind of kidding, but that just didn't cut it for me. Maybe it was my IE crashing in mid-video. Who knows.

[Hrothgar15]

Ok... so.

1. Jazz is very difficult to clean - the articulations, the nuance makes it harder for 64 people to pull off well, and it's also hard to teach unless you really know jazz. I think that's reason one that corps don't do jazz anymore.

2. Really technical sections are ####### hard to perform while moving at today's pace. Someone said that it'd be cool to see technical passages while doing "Cavies kaleidoscope" drill. Agreed. It'd also be insanely difficult, and probably not very clean.

3. Cleaning up jazz doesn't make it lose passion or edge. There's nothing more impressive than a soli section (especially saxes) where the players are in the pocket, grooving with the same articulation and expression. And it's good because it's clean.... Clean does not equal bad in jazz. I think where this argument comes in in drum corps today is that when many corps "clean" jazz they do so at the expense of watering articulations and expressiveness. That's when jazz loses its passion - when you water the articulations. Not when it's played cleanly.

Simply put, I just don't think hornlines today could play ripping solis and other jazz stuff while running around the field at a 4 to 5. Playing jazz well while sitting down (or standing up) is hard enough. Doing it while running is hard. I know. I played a Duke Ellington show in 06 where we were swinging at 180 and running around the field. It's hard to get that feel when you're busy trying not to look like ####/have your feet coming through your sound.

I don't know. It sucks. I like jazz. I like drum corps. But for now I think we'll have to accept that jazz isn't going to be played as much in the future as it was in the past. I still have all my jazz on the computer, and still have all the old BD and Madison shows. If I want jazz, I'll listen to it (btw, thanks to the person that mentioned Terry Kath... I just started listening to some old Chicago now that you reminded me).

So why again is it important that DCI drill be so challenging that it encroaches on the number of musical styles that can be played? The visual component has been emphasized way too much this decade...it's time to get the pendulum swinging back in the other direction. Drill didn't exactly suck in the late '80s/early '90s...just look at Star.

[liebot]

Can we all just agree that BD '88 was one of the tightest, cleanest uses of jazz in DCI history? Good god that hornline was ridiculous.

[corpsvalues]

So why again is it important that DCI drill be so challenging that it encroaches on the number of musical styles that can be played? The visual component has been emphasized way too much this decade...it's time to get the pendulum swinging back in the other direction. Drill didn't exactly suck in the late '80s/early '90s...just look at Star.

Hrothgar, I must say that this is one of the few times I've ever truly agreed with you. It does seem that the visual world has overtaken the musical world. It's no longer good enough to have the best "drums" and "bugles" in order to win the championship. You now need to "emote" too. I'm not sure this is a good thing. Maybe it's time for the "blowers" and "hitters" to re-take control of the asylum.

In my humble opinion, of course!

[bawker]

Can we all just agree that BD '88 was one of the tightest, cleanest uses of jazz in DCI history? Good god that hornline was ridiculous.

Yes. :)

That show, more than any other BD show except 1986, truly defines BD to me.