Difference between Bb and G horns

[ravedodger]

OK, I'm confused. A "C" on a Bb trumpet has the same fingerings as a "C" on a G bugle. It's open. Granted, the trumpet's "C" is a concert Bb, and the bugle's "C" is a concert G. Are you talking concert fingerings? Because the brass charts aren't written in concert pitches.

Heck, I'm a drummer and I know that!

Garry

Hi Garry. The reason we transpose parts to to avoid transposing fingerings. So if you look at a transposed part, such as a Bb Trumpet, the C is still open. If you were to play a C trumpet looking at a written c on a Bb trumpet part, your note would sound a whole-step above the Bb's written C, which of course, will sound terrible if you're playing with someone else.

I know that William Vacciano (RIP) preferred to have all parts written in C and use fingering transposition in order to keep things simple, thus avoiding all this discussion we're having now.

Edited October 18, 2007 by ravedodger

[Dave]

Some of what you say makes sense, but I'm still calling shenanagins on this post. Now mind you, I'm not a tuba player, but would someone care to tell me how writing tuba parts in treble clef is a good idea at all. Seriously.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but since all brass instruments are built based on the overtone series, this gets rid of the need to learn an entirely new set of fingerings for different horns. C is open on a Bb, Eb, F, G, or C trumpet. So what is the issue? Again, I'm not a tuba player and I don't feel like opening up an orchestration book right now. Explain my good man.

There are basically two reasons a G hornline would use treble clef. Firstly, the more longstanding reason is the same one that brass bands use all treble clef for their parts: in the event you need someone to switch horns because of numbers or whatever, they don't have to learn a whole new set of fingerings. They'll still have to get used to the horn, but they can already read the music. Secondly, and what I would say is a more recent reason, is that it's arguably easier and more useful for a tuba player to learn to read treble clef, than for them to have to learn to read bass clef with G fingerings. Those fingerings will only be useful in drum corps, but learning to read treble clef will be a tool that will remain useful throughout that musician's lifetime. Now, a Bb hornline doesn't really have a need to write in treble clef because it wouldn't have to worry about their players learning an unconventional fingering setup, although if they did it would be akin to brass bands writing their parts in treble, if for no other reason than allowing flexibility between instruments.

I'd also like to add that the only reason we put tuba parts in bass clef is because in the United States, our band composition standardization has come not from the European band traditions but from their orchestra tradition. That's not to say it's wrong, or bad, or that no band tradition uses what we call "bass clef" for its tuba parts, simply that our traditions were developed differently. So it's what we're used to, but there's also nothing wrong with using treble or any other clef for tubas.

[dbc03]

Don't knock unless you've experienced the difference. Along with being in G the horns did not have upright valves which meant people who never heard of corps before could tell you were not in a band. Playing my piston/rotor beast was part of my experience also and I'm glad I came form a time when the differences between DC and MB were more than what you feel.

That's fine, but for me drum corps is defined by hard work and striving for perfection and a million other things, not the piece of metal in my hands. I feel sorry for people that can't look past the piece of metal.

[ravedodger]

Hey Dave, I think I hear an echo in here. :P

[cheezedogg 23]

Back to to topic... the only physical differences (besides that each manufacturer uses different designs of bending the tubes) is that G horns, or bugles if you want, are longer in actually length of tubing on soprano, mello, alto, baritone/euph, and contra, but in physical length from mouthpiece receiver to bell tended to be shorter than the Bb counterparts are, but that isn't always the case, mostly with the Euph, I don't think I've ever seen a Bb horn that was longer from mouthpiece receiver to the bell than the King and Kanstul Euphoniums, I could be wrong, and as far as tuba/contra is concerned, each brand and model varies of actual height of it sitting on its bell to the top curve of piping; some Bbs are 'taller' and some Gs are 'taller' depending on the brand and model. But with All Gs having more piping they are all heavier than their Bb counterparts, maybe not in Dynasty Gs, I think their sops were lighter than trumpets. Which probably leads the fact I hated the sounds of Dynasty sops.

For those that know technical physical traits, did I miss any? I noticed most of the replies eventually concerned sound and such, but the OP was talking about physical things. Not EVERY G was conical bore, and not every Bb is cylindrical. There were G horns that were cylindrical, the alto and french horns I believe were cylindrical in some cases, and some brands of sopranos were cylindrical, and there are some Bbs horns that are conical.

There may be a few that don't know the difference between cylindrical and conical and don't feel like googling it or reading it on previous posts. The difference is in a cylindrical horn the bore size, or the inside hole of the tubing, stays the same diameter all the way to the valves, then after the valves begins to open up and flare out to the bell. Where as a conical horn is like a cone, it starts at the mouthpiece receiver and gradually starts to get bigger as it approaches the valves and, and also gets bigger after the valves leading the bell just like cylindrical horns do. I think I said it right and didn't forget something.

[Dave]

Hey Dave, I think I hear an echo in here. :P

Heh, indeed. Unfortunately, drum corps is rife with old myths regarding the equipment, and one or two posts on the subject never seems to be quite enough to deal with them.

[JayM]

is that G horns, or bugles if you want, are longer in actually length of tubing on soprano, mello, alto, baritone/euph, and contra, but in physical length from mouthpiece receiver to bell tended to be shorter than the Bb counterparts are, but that isn't always the case

Actually, the mellophone in G has less tubing than the F mello.

[JimF-LowBari]

That's fine, but for me drum corps is defined by hard work and striving for perfection and a million other things, not the piece of metal in my hands. I feel sorry for people that can't look past the piece of metal.

That's why I said the P/R horn was part of the experience. IMO, each "generation" of corps people is most proud of and talks about what more set DC apart from MB. Today, that would be the experience, in my day it was the horns.

And that's why we have threads like this.... B)

And don't get the wrong idea that us oldsters either didn't work that hard or didn't care about how hard we worked. We just don't talk about it that much.

Edited October 18, 2007 by JimF-3rdBari

[dbc03]

That's why I said the P/R horn was part of the experience. IMO, each "generation" of corps people is most proud of and talks about what more set DC apart from MB. Today, that would be the experience, in my day it was the horns.

And that's why we have threads like this.... B)

And don't get the wrong idea that us oldsters either didn't work that hard or didn't care about how hard we worked. We just don't talk about it that much.

Yeah, but the only thing elphaba ever does in the Div 1 forum is talk about how terrible things are today and brag about how she'll never have anything to do with DCI, and how drum corps today isn't drum corps because blah blah blah whine whine whine

[Old School Contra Guy]