What's wrong with shows today?

[HockeyDad]

Let me first say I can't believe this thread is still open.

Second, let me say I DON'T CARE what you think "Is wrong with today's shows". There is nothing wrong with today's shows. DCI doesn't need, nor should it seek, this elusive "mass appeal" that old-timers seem to think is so important.

You mean that drum corps will make a positive contribution to thousands of lives across the country every year? You get my drift.

It's not even really ABOUT the friggen show. If you had two brain cells left to rub together (maybe playing high and high-stepping while playing pop tunes finally did the other one in) you'd know it's not about the amplification, the narration, the music that they play or any of that.

Mantra - there's nothing wrong with today's shows.

Mass appeal - right. What's the big deal about money? Money is just a concept.

Positive contribution - Agreed!! It's the knowledge of that positive contribution that has people so passionate, correct?

Two brain cells - keep up the name calling, it really helps. Don't recall one of us "old people" calling you names, but dont' let that stop you.

[dsaeger]

Let me first say I can't believe this thread is still open.

Second, let me say I DON'T CARE what you think "Is wrong with today's shows". There is nothing wrong with today's shows. DCI doesn't need, nor should it seek, this elusive "mass appeal" that old-timers seem to think is so important. I can't believe that I come on here every time and read about how much my activity sucks, how much better it used to be, how stupid everyone involved is and how much they don't get it--maybe with a little tag of "nothing against the kids" after a short essay insulting everything that I've chosen to dedicate myself to.

You want to know what the biggest difference is between drum corps now and when I guess the OP thought it was "better"? Kids in drum corps actually get an outstanding education these days! HOLY ####! You mean that the members of the top drum corps are MOSTLY music performance and education majors? HOLY ####! You mean that those members and staff are going to take that information and use it to teach high school bands, reaching a larger, sustainable audience every day across the country? HOLY ####! You mean that drum corps will make a positive contribution to thousands of lives across the country every year? You get my drift.

It's not even really ABOUT the friggen show. If you had two brain cells left to rub together (maybe playing high and high-stepping while playing pop tunes finally did the other one in) you'd know it's not about the amplification, the narration, the music that they play or any of that.

But old people don't get it.

They'd rather complain about how DCI is "esoteric" and full of "bandos".

That's not it either.

[JimF-LowBari]

Well let's not forget the main difference refering to number of corps today:

If I found a place to march it's not a problem. <fill in various comments about DCI should be for the major corps only, people got cut because they didn't practice or want it bad enough, etc, etc>

If I can't find a place to march it is a problem.

Edited November 18, 2007 by JimF-3rdBari

[HoltonH178]

"Mass Appeal" also equated to more corps and more chances to march. Not exactly a bad thing.....

Like I've posted before, Drum Corps started being something almost anyone could enjoy or participate in. Thru the decades it's has changed (evolved if you will) to the point that one has to be a very good musican to particpate in. As far as watching, you're right, DC has gone from it's one time "mass appeal" to playing mainly to possible future members, current members and Alumni. Before anyone flames I've seen the target audience of DCI is potential members. Now any wonder PBS and ESPN telecasts are no longer seen.

In the 80s we used to kiddingly refer to DCI as "Music Majors playing to other Music Majors". And that was in in the day of PBS broadcasts and a lot more corps...

I understand your first opinion, and agree that it's not a bad thing. However, the mentality and education of our youth, and thus by necessity the nature of our activity, have all changed drastically since this was the case. The purposes served by these small corps in our activity are today served by competitive band programs. I just came back from FMBC championships last night, and there might not have been a single staff there that didn't have at least one former or current member of a drum and bugle corps on it. There were even a few former Div I staff members to be seen...

Every year we come on here and talk about the kids who are cut from the top 12 corps and do not march; perhaps many of them rightly so. I was taught by people who were Cadets, Cavaliers, Madison Scouts, and Bluecoats staff members at the time when I was in high school, and I would not have received that kind of instruction on tour because I was not that talented. Not to mention it costs significantly less to do this than DCI.

Is it a bad thing that bands serve this now instead of corps? I think it's a great thing. I would argue that bands probably have a lot more long-term stability being part of public education. Not only that, but they offer practical lessons and applications which easily transfer to students concert goals, especially considering there are no limits on instrumentation. Futhermore, there are way more high schools in this country than there will ever be drum corps, and that is a fact.

Edited November 18, 2007 by HoltonH178

[HoltonH178]

Mantra - there's nothing wrong with today's shows.

Mass appeal - right. What's the big deal about money? Money is just a concept.

Positive contribution - Agreed!! It's the knowledge of that positive contribution that has people so passionate, correct?

Mantra - "There's something wrong with today's shows."

Mass appeal - DCI has as much mass appeal as it needs because nearly everyone who marches/spins/whatever at some point is aware of it. Not everyone who is aware of it gets involved, gives time, effort and money towards DCI. This is a much more pertinent, practical, valuable front, and one which we have made way more progress on than ever before.

Positive contribution - Glad to hear it!

[Meaghatron]

I understand your first opinion, and agree that it's not a bad thing. However, the mentality and education of our youth, and thus by necessity the nature of our activity, have all changed drastically since this was the case. The purposes served by these small corps in our activity are today served by competitive band programs. I just came back from FMBC championships last night, and there might not have been a single staff there that didn't have at least one former or current member of a drum and bugle corps on it. There were even a few former Div I staff members to be seen...

Every year we come on here and talk about the kids who are cut from the top 12 corps and do not march; perhaps many of them rightly so. I was taught by people who were Cadets, Cavaliers, Madison Scouts, and Bluecoats staff members at the time when I was in high school, and I would not have received that kind of instruction on tour because I was not that talented. Not to mention it costs significantly less to do this than DCI.

Is it a bad thing that bands serve this now instead of corps? I think it's a great thing. I would argue that bands probably have a lot more long-term stability being part of public education. Not only that, but they offer practical lessons and applications which easily transfer to students concert goals, especially considering there are no limits on instrumentation. Futhermore, there are way more high schools in this country than there will ever be drum corps, and that is a fact.

I also was at the FMBC Championships yesterday, and I saw quite a few former/current marching members there (and this was only the 1A semi-finals site). The small 1A band I help with has two staff members who marched drum corps (one Cavalier and one Crossmen, both marched KK also), plus a guard instructor who does WGI.

With competitive band programs throughout the nation and also shaky music education in areas of the nation (yeah, sounds like an oxi-moron), I'm not surprised that drum corps is not as popular as it once was. Unforunately, it's not appreciated by as many as it should be. But anyways...

Shows today are amazing. Shows of yester-year are amazing. It's all a matter of personal taste.

[Iplaytimpani]

Dude, argue with him to your hearts content, but don't stereotype snare drummers as unthinking, mindless, automatons. <**>

Sorry Adam, not the intent. I know a ton of snare drummers who are wonderful musicians and are far from unthinking and mindless. This dude however, is clearly not one of them. So sorry for any unintentional disrespect to the snare world. Now back to arguing with him to my hearts content.

Don't mind the tymp guy - just jealous that he doesn't have the chops to play snare!

haha, yeah man. You got me.. my chops suck. :) By the way, did you go pull out your references on song yet? Here's the simple dictionary.com look up. If you'd like, I could cut and paste some stuff from Grove Music articles or the Burkholder anthologies as reference too. You're wrong man, get over it.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Iplaytimpani

[BigSnareline]

Sorry Adam, not the intent. I know a ton of snare drummers who are wonderful musicians and are far from unthinking and mindless. This dude however, is clearly not one of them. So sorry for any unintentional disrespect to the snare world. Now back to arguing with him to my hearts content.

haha, yeah man. You got me.. my chops suck. :) By the way, did you go pull out your references on song yet? Here's the simple dictionary.com look up. If you'd like, I could cut and paste some stuff from Grove Music articles or the Burkholer anthologies as reference too. You're wrong man, get over it.

I'll just keep calling them songs - part of my thickheaded snare drummer mentality. I still maintain that if today's arrangers would write complete arrangements of "SONGS" it would be more enjoyable to listen to.

[Dave]

Mass appeal - DCI has as much mass appeal as it needs because nearly everyone who marches/spins/whatever at some point is aware of it. Not everyone who is aware of it gets involved, gives time, effort and money towards DCI. This is a much more pertinent, practical, valuable front, and one which we have made way more progress on than ever before.

Okay, I gotta stop you there: DCI doesn't need any more mass appeal than it has today? Only the people who are currently or were recently involved should be the concern for DCI marketing? That seems like an incredibly backward strategy. It's not about getting involved or giving money, it's about getting people who are willing to spend two or three hours at a show, and this attitude isn't one designed to generate those sorts of people. As for why this thread is still open--why wouldn't it be? It violates no rules, and it hasn't gone off-topic or turned into a flamewar.

To be quite honest, I agree in part with the original post. I believe that many of today's shows have become too much about form and function and not enough about just plain playing good music. Yes, yes, I know there are examples out there to the contrary, but by and large I see too much targeting of design elements to judging sheets and not enough designing of a show for its real impact on an audience. It's like knowing that a test is going to come up and studying only the specific words you'll have to write on the test--you're able to pass the test, but the larger picture is missed completely. Recently I had the opportunity to watch a DVD of Prince's Sign 'O' The Times show, definitely an old one, but an amazing show full of almost anything one could ask for in a musical performance. I've begun to delve into this world as I play more with my band and I look for inspiration for new tunes and for designs for our own show (yes, the marching world isn't the only one that designs shows). The more I watched it, the more I realized the show was essentially the same general concept as the best drum corps shows--or the best symphonies, looking at it purely from a standpoint of the music. The high points and low points were balanced incredibly so that the audience was able to experience the fullest impact of all the music together with everything that was happening on stage--but at the same time, there was nothing that felt canned about it, nothing that was just an imitation of things before it. I could definitely name things that had influenced it, such as James Brown's stage shows, but even with that, the production was still inspired and the incredible performances were highlighted by good design.

This is what is missing from so many of today's corps shows. They've become so formulaic that they've lost a lot of inspiration, and even the corps trying to do something new, in the end, just end up trying to cram some new elements into the same old design concept.

Before everyone rushes to put words into my mouth, please go back and read my post again. I didn't rip anyone or any corps, I didn't say that DCI sucks or that it's going to die, and I didn't say one bleeding word about amps. What I am saying is that I believe DCI has become too comfortable in itself and that I have not seen serious envelope pushing of the sort that got us to where we are today in both design and execution. I would like to see a corps really push the envelope and become more of a big musical production, the way Vanguard took itself to a new level with its huge productions in the late 80s (but I am NOT saying that corps need to do exactly what Vanguard did, simply saying that they should looking outside the usual drum corps box). Throw away the formulas, put down the caption sheets, and design shows that are raw and powerful, using design elements to emphasize what you're doing well, rather than cramming tunes into preset design notions.

[Iplaytimpani]

I'll just keep calling them songs - part of my thickheaded snare drummer mentality. I still maintain that if today's arrangers would write complete arrangements of "SONGS" it would be more enjoyable to listen to.

So quoting you, but talking to many. If today's arrangers aren't doing a good job, why is that they're the current arrangers? How come you aren't out there in the DCI world arranging music? I'm going to guess you don't have the qualifications to! So if you don't have the qualifications to be an arranger, what are your qualifications to say that the current arrangements aren't good?