George Hopkins vs. Scott Stewart

[HockeyDad]

Are you saying that drum corps will die without woodwinds? They are the savior waiting around the bend? Or are you talking about some other innovation lurking out there that will make drum corps bigger than it has ever been before? I'm just curious about what you're getting at.

I was being sarcastic....... you know, repeating the mantra of the 8 billion posts that say this... Anyway, I like the unique sound of drum corps. Changing for the sake of changing, without any real vision or business plan, and becoming just another marching band organization, seems like not a real great idea in my opinion. So, no, I'm not big into the - well, that didn't work, let's try this - philosophy. I think that first, the BOD should try to agree on what DCI is, what it is for, what their purpose is. I don't know, maybe you can never get a consensus on that, but they did manage to get rid of their main antagonist, Mr. Stewart. Have things improved, financially, since 2002? Why do I even ask. I already know who will say "yes" and who will say "no." I think getting rid of the broadcast is not looking good for the long term. But who thinks in the long term? Just worry about today? Or how to get through this season? At least the BOD isn't making any real bone headed moves lately, like having Finals in Jackson MS. The move to Indy does seem logical, at least.

[BigSnareline]

My two cents worth - Scott Stewart always produced a powerful corps that actually entertained the audience. They played for the fans, not the judges as much. What would you rather see, a corps that plays to the fans or the judges?

[madscout96]

no they would not be a string quartet, but it wouldn't really matter, there would just be one less string quartet in the world.

i'm not really for woodwinds, i just thought that this whole analogy is pretty irrelevant, because there is no competitive string quartet circuits (none that do tours ala dci anyway, i'm sure there are a few isolated completions for string quartets) so it's not like if the shanghai string quartet decided to come out with two violins, a viola and a bass clarinet(which i think would sound rather nice, assuming you could get a viola that could play in tune) that all string quartets would cease to exist, and have to have that orchestration to "keep up" but, if you legalized wws in dci, they would certainly become ubiquitous because that is the nature of what it is. Like i said before, same horns, every year, every corps. If there was some way to allow woodwinds, but yet not have them be in every corps, i think that would be very cool. However, aside from removing the competitive aspects of DCI, that will never happen.

I agree with what you say, but I made the analogy because string quartets and drum corps are two types of ensembles that have very clear definitions about what they are. They are defined by their instrumentation, whether there's a governing body for them or not.

[Tekneek]

I was being sarcastic....... you know, repeating the mantra of the 8 billion posts that say this...

Ah. Ok. :)

[HoltonH178]

I can and have tolerated much change and growth in this activity. Believe it or not, I approve of more than I disapprove. It is you, who is stubborn and blind when you insist that change and growth can only happen by adding woodwinds. That is simply not true. Marching bands have had woodwinds all the time. Have they not grown and changed? Drum corps have never had woodwinds. Have they not grown and changed?

Marching bands have done so much more creatively in the last 10 years than drum corps have, and part of that has been introducing new instruments and amps. Mic'd oboes and bassoons, instrumental pit amplification, vocal usage for over 15 years, electronics...there was a time when none of this was on the field whatsoever, and marching bands pioneered the endeavor. The marching band world has flourished and grown at a rate that is exponential in comparison to DCI's last 10 years...primarily because DCI is supported by people who would rather make sure that kids are doing a certain thing on the field than offer a high-quality education and experience to a larger, more professional base of students. If we improve the educational experience, allow for a huge number of students to more easily participate, then we will have more members who are the main recruiters for attendance at shows and camps. If we remain committed to our goal of offering the touring life to as many who seek it as possible while maintaining professional quality and creativity, then I believe drum corps' stagnation in the recent past (particularly creatively and financially) will be very much alleviated.

Then why has summer drum corps succeded where summer marching band has failed? Must be something in the differences between them.

This really isn't a fair comparison, and everyone knows it, which is why I think anti-WW people are so keen on using it.

DCI has already established itself as the primary market for premium marching in our music community, and has professional credentials that go beyond what any start-up might possibly be able to achieve. It's said every day on these forums that we exist in a "niche," and DCI already serves that niche at a high percentage, especially professionally, where nearly everyone who's anyone in marching already works for DCI in some capacity.

Furthermore, the summer band programs that have existed in this country were far more comparable to small drum corps circuits such as DCM than an international operation such as DCI. They didn't fail because of what was on the field; they failed because DCI already has all of the history and all of the market that there is to be had in our realm. What's more, I would argue that creating a separate circuit in that manner is, in the long-term, damaging to our activity as a whole (that is, marching, which is all nearly the same thing done differently). This isn't the way to go about making our activity better, and everyone knows it.

How does the experience become greater by adding woodwinds? Listen, if drum corps is going to set you back professionally, then choose to do something else. Apparently you didn't. Why? Because it is worth it. That's why. So don't complain about being held back professionally when you could choose other wise. Quit complaining and get over it.

The experience becomes greater by adding woodwinds because, first, the lessons learned are much more applicable to the concert season, which should be any wind musician's focus, professional or otherwise. Second, it opens it to more talented and dedicated people to participate, and that adds to DCI's professional network post-corps as well as increasing revenues, involved patrons, and attendance.

Like it or not, DCI needs professional musicians and educators in order to survive and be respected in its field. These people have the potential to bring in some of the best and brightest in order to ensure creative success and the highest levels of performance. Hindering their development and insulting them for their willingness to dedicate themselves for the activity is short-sighted at best.

Listen sonny, I have spent more than thousands directly on the activity. I have been active in the activity beyond my marching years. I have contributed, donated, volunteered and helped out. You seem to think your the most important just because you march right now. I got news for you, it's not all about you.

We are the future.

You talk about others feeling more important and you go around saying who is qualifed and who is not? I marched drum corps and I marched marching band. That's right, I have them both. Discussion reopened young Mr. High-and-mighty.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but would you mind telling me where you went to HS and when? I believe you were in marching band. I just sincerely doubt that your band program is much like that which you want to avoid seeming like--that is, a top-notch BOA group--and that's why I consider your argument that drum corps and fall marching band would be the same thing to be invalid.

No, one goes with the other. And for those nonbrass players who have their panties in a twist about not being able to play their instrument whenever they want and where ever they want will hopefully understand to get the full experience you must become the full experience. Then we can discuss improving the product.

The full experience has about 0.2% to do with the music/instrument that you play--unless it affects you negatively.

No one is advocating that we remain in 1972. You are saying that the only way to grow and change is your way. If we don't, we hold you back professionally. That's your choice, not drum corps, so quit blaming drum corps for it.

It's drum corps' policy to be so inflexible regarding instrumentation that I can't even play my instrument because of the way the bell faces. I stay because I love the experience of marching and believe it has a very positive role to play in people's lives. What's really so wrong with wanting that experience to be even more positive to professionals who will make huge contributions to the activity in the future?

And who do you think spends thousands of dollars on tickets, CDs, DVDs, T-shirts, etc. That's right, the ones willing to spend thousands to come and watch. you sound like an intelligent person,are you truly that unaware?

Most individuals do not spend thousands on tickets, CDs, and DVDs, period. Maybe over an expanse of many, many years, but this is still not the same kind of financial contribution as actually participating, recruiting, and paying into the activity. Again, people spend thousands to come and watch, but that money doesn't largely go into the activity, it goes to American Airlines and La Quinta. Therefore, largely expendable.

Those who are stubborn enough to stop supporting DCI because of WWs will be replaced by the networks brought in by woodwind players, and even then, I am willing to bet that most of this would be temporary--I really do believe that once DCI added WWs, eventually everyone would realize how little it affected the actual performances, and come back around. But maybe I am placing to much faith in the hearts of our FMMs.

Here you do just what you complain others are doing to you...putting words into my mouth. There are many ways to change, not just your way.

All I am saying is that it is possible for DCI not to enforce particular instrumentation through judging. Personally, I don't approve--it's a restriction on creative freedom. If a hornline could come out and put on a great, creative, innovative show on G bugles, with no WWs and no amplification, then by all means they should go for it and DCI should judge them on the merits of their performance and design. I don't like you insinuating that it is not possible for DCI to do whatever it pleases, including having a different take on judging than they have in the past in regard to rule changes.

Oh, and this way will happen one day. Mark my words.

I have not criticized your dedication nor your promotion of the activity. Again, you complain about the detriment to your professional career. No one made you march. No one keeps you marching. You choose that all by yourself. That's not evil. That's life. Quit blaming drum corps for holding you back. Drum corps is not holding you back. If your career is being held back because of drum corps, then it is your own choice that is holding you back, hence, you are holding yourself back. Life is about making decisions. You made yours. I made mine. Cool. Quit complaining.

DCI needs professionals, and shlould support their growth as much as possible in order to maintain their favor. Sorry that comes across as "complaining" to you, I just call it common sense.

[Tekneek]

Marching bands have done so much more creatively in the last 10 years than drum corps have, and part of that has been introducing new instruments and amps. Mic'd oboes and bassoons, instrumental pit amplification, vocal usage for over 15 years, electronics...there was a time when none of this was on the field whatsoever, and marching bands pioneered the endeavor. The marching band world has flourished and grown at a rate that is exponential in comparison to DCI's last 10 years...

Wait a minute. I thought DCI was the elite marching circuit? If marching band is already vastly superior, why are so many people even still interested in drum corps at all? I thought we had to change the rules so more could experience the elite drum corps world. Now I read that drum corps sucks compared to band. Why would they even want to bother with drum corps at all? Wouldn't it be boring after all the incredible innovations that marching band excites millions with every fall? The reasons this change must be made appear to move around and contradict themselves.

Edited November 25, 2007 by Tekneek

[HoltonH178]

Wait a minute. I thought DCI was the elite marching circuit? If marching band is already vastly superior, why are so many people even still interested in drum corps at all? I thought we had to change the rules so more could experience the elite drum corps world. Now I read that drum corps sucks compared to band. Why would they even want to bother with drum corps at all? Wouldn't it be boring after all the incredible innovations that marching band excites millions with every fall?

Marching bands do not tour, do not do physical conditioning, do not perform at 220 bpm, do not have members 17-21, do not have the professional resources drum and bugle corps do, and do not have the professional standards drum and bugle corps do.

Because it is administrated and designed better comparatively does not mean that the production is entirely better, but these are due to the constrains of the different levels of our activity.

Edited November 25, 2007 by HoltonH178

[Tekneek]

Marching bands do not tour, do not do physical conditioning, do not perform at 220 bpm, do not have members 17-21, do not have the professional resources drum and bugle corps do, and do not have the professional standards drum and bugle corps do.

Because it is administrated and designed better comparatively does not mean that the production is entirely better, but these are due to the constrains of the different levels of our activity.

So all these kids that go out for drum corps each fall and then march all summer are secretly wishing they were still doing marching band and are just accepting drum corps as something to do with their non-marching band time? I cannot believe, with the amount of money these kids pay to march corps, that they wish it was just like the marching bands they just graduated from or will go back to when tour is over.

[HoltonH178]

So all these kids that go out for drum corps each fall and then march all summer are secretly wishing they were still doing marching band and are just accepting drum corps as something to do with their non-marching band time? I cannot believe, with the amount of money these kids pay to march corps, that they wish it was just like the marching bands they just graduated from or will go back to when tour is over.

I just got done explaining how they are different. I don't see your point.

[Tekneek]

I just got done explaining how they are different. I don't see your point.

Maybe I don't get your point. Drum corps is better because they tour, they do physical training, and march at faster tempos? Other than those things, marching band is vastly superior? They have to allow woodwinds in because they are being denied the chance to tour, run miles and do hundreds of push ups, and then march fast tempos?

Edited November 25, 2007 by Tekneek