WGI judges

[la mejor]

So I was bored today and was looking around the WGI website. I came across the 2008 list of active judges.

The list was very interesting and I wonder if anyone more knowledgeable has any thoughts...

Out of the 47 judges that were listed, only about 10 are female (as much as I could tell from a name).

This was just interesting...

Anyone know why so few females? In your experience, does it matter between a male or female judge?

Just thougtht this might be an interesting topic!

[corpsband]

So I was bored today and was looking around the WGI website. I came across the 2008 list of active judges.

The list was very interesting and I wonder if anyone more knowledgeable has any thoughts...

Out of the 47 judges that were listed, only about 10 are female (as much as I could tell from a name).

This was just interesting...

Anyone know why so few females? In your experience, does it matter between a male or female judge?

Just thougtht this might be an interesting topic!

Here's the link. Only 13 equipment judges and 12 movement judges. Considering the number of performances judged each weekend that's not very many judges downstairs.

[dugg]

Just thougtht this might be an interesting topic!

me too!

Edited December 1, 2007 by dugg

[MHSmirage]

Love Jackie Gilley....always have a great critique with her at regionals and circuit.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the massive amount of GE judges in direct correlation to the fact that the two GE judges per panel?

Anyone know what shows are double panel besides Championships?

[Musical_Spinner]

Jackie Gilley always gave the guard I was in good advice, our instructors seemed to really like her too.

I really wish we could see some credentials for judges, especially for movement.

[dugg]

triple threat george oliveiro is one of the best minds in the artform well versed in judging G.E.,ensemble and movement.

several big names are absent including one of wgi's founding members doyenne marie czapinski.perhaps she's on sabbatical or a much needed respite.

the only member of last years wgi acadamy given the "key to the executive washroom" was tim landess from indiana judging equipment.

i beleive that double panels are but a memory.

after this weekends meeting perhaps more "news" will be forthcoming.

Edited December 1, 2007 by dugg

[rsquaredhg]

Jackie Gilley always gave the guard I was in good advice, our instructors seemed to really like her too.

I really wish we could see some credentials for judges, especially for movement.

What kind of credentials would most of you like to see for a WGI movement judge? What is acceptable? What is unacceptable?

In regards to the fewer number of female judges than male judges, I have to wonder how many of these women are mothers. I know that as a mom, full-time teacher, color guard instructor, and local circuit judge, myself, I would find it extremely difficult to manage traveling to judge a WGI event. If children are fully grown, that's another story...............

[Musical_Spinner]

What kind of credentials would most of you like to see for a WGI movement judge? What is acceptable? What is unacceptable?

In regards to the fewer number of female judges than male judges, I have to wonder how many of these women are mothers. I know that as a mom, full-time teacher, color guard instructor, and local circuit judge, myself, I would find it extremely difficult to manage traveling to judge a WGI event. If children are fully grown, that's another story...............

I want a practical assessment of their skills in all things movement. I want to see them demonstrate their knowledge of what is uniform in movement and what isn't. There is too much focus on heighth and cleanliness where technique is the victim but because it looks impressive it is rewarded. If we aren't using the same basic fundamentals from dance then at least use the basic principles of kinesiology.

I actually want them TESTED a practical examination before letting them judge (or maybe there is one, but it should be a harder one imo). There are classes we take as dance majors that enhance our eyes and our minds to see where movement comes from in the body, why we find it pleasing to the eye and why not. Judges should be able to have that eye to determine and qualify their scores beyond just cleanliness. I know that might skew the line of biased views but other captions such as GE also skew that line.

My biggest complaint is guards that use ballet badly and are rewarded for it. DON'T TAKE ELEMENTS OF BALLET AND NOT USE THEM PROPERLY.

In ballet you never stop moving or growing through the phrase, yet in guard when they use certain elements from ballet they stop short of finishing

out the movement phrase and judges don't see it. I know ballet isn't necessary to score movement, but if you use it badly you should definitely be penalized because it's poor use of what you are trying to use.

Northeast Independent in my eyes is the single biggest sinner in that respect, imo (flame away). Stiff and disconnected.

Fantasia before 2004 was also pretty bad, someone must have gotten the memo since.

Opus 10/Oracle is fantastic in their movement.

Pride of Cincinnati is also (maybe cause their movement tech is a ballerina?)

BUT

As far as credentials go, I want to see them dance. I don't care if they marched in the 80s or early 90s for the best guard in the universe dance in guard has changed, prove to me you understand the changes. You can't understand dance unless you can do it either, so all of those judges should be dancers. And if you are judging, you better be able to dance well.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Musical_Spinner

[Jak]

Patty Beggy is a wonderful equipment judge who is a female.

I believe the Dayton Regional has a double panel.

[quegrawks]

I want a practical assessment of their skills in all things movement. I want to see them demonstrate their knowledge of what is uniform in movement and what isn't. There is too much focus on heighth and cleanliness where technique is the victim but because it looks impressive it is rewarded. If we aren't using the same basic fundamentals from dance then at least use the basic principles of kinesiology.

I actually want them TESTED a practical examination before letting them judge (or maybe there is one, but it should be a harder one imo). There are classes we take as dance majors that enhance our eyes and our minds to see where movement comes from in the body, why we find it pleasing to the eye and why not. Judges should be able to have that eye to determine and qualify their scores beyond just cleanliness. I know that might skew the line of biased views but other captions such as GE also skew that line.

I'm guessing you are totally unfamiliar with the process of becoming a WGI judge.

First, you must be a credentialed judge in a WGI-affiliated circuit for 3 years before you can even consider becoming a WGI judge. (Yes, I'm aware that it used to be 2 years, but it is now 3). In order to do this, you are put through a fairly rigourous instructional program, where you are tested on vocabulary associated with your area of judging, what it means to judge, the language of judging, how to judge effectively and fairly. There are multiple tests-- both paper and pencil and oral response.

You are then required to sit in on several contests while writing notes, numbers, ranking-and-rating, all before you can even begin to make a tape-- which is analyzed to death by the educational director of your circuit, and in some cases make several tapes.

Sometimes this process lasts for more than a year before you are allowed to judge. THEN you only judge the beginner classes (Novice, AAA, AA, etc.) as you gain experience. At any step in the process, any instructor can call you out and then you may be forced to return to judge-training. In my 2nd year, I finally had the opportunity to judge A class and Open Class guards at one competition. It was quite interesting.

Second, to become a WGI judge, you must apply to and be accepted into the WGI Academy program. I do not know the criteria for this, as I am just now approaching my 3rd year as a colorguard judge. However, I'd assume that it's something similar, but more difficult (or more scrutinized) than for the WGI-affiliated circuits.

My biggest complaint is guards that use ballet badly and are rewarded for it. DON'T TAKE ELEMENTS OF BALLET AND NOT USE THEM PROPERLY.

In ballet you never stop moving or growing through the phrase, yet in guard when they use certain elements from ballet they stop short of finishing

out the movement phrase and judges don't see it. I know ballet isn't necessary to score movement, but if you use it badly you should definitely be penalized because it's poor use of what you are trying to use.

Northeast Independent in my eyes is the single biggest sinner in that respect, imo (flame away). Stiff and disconnected.

Fantasia before 2004 was also pretty bad, someone must have gotten the memo since.

Opus 10/Oracle is fantastic in their movement.

Pride of Cincinnati is also (maybe cause their movement tech is a ballerina?)

These sound like personal opinions and not based on the judging criteria. Also, just because someone uses the elements of ballet does not mean they are doing ballet. They might be doing modern lyrical ballet, which looks nothing like traditional ballet. Most of the guards you mention only use Ballet as a basis for their movement programs, and build off of it from there. Add the fact that ALL the guards you mentioned are either a) required to attend dance classes or B) taught by professional dancers, and I think it's becoming clear that you are not really informed about the facts of what you are stating is inherently wrong with the system.

Although I would argue with your comments based on last year's performances of your comments because each show is different in their approach, as each teacher is different in their style of dance, and looking at the show concept might change your opinion of whether the movement of each of these groups was "sinful."

BUT

As far as credentials go, I want to see them dance. I don't care if they marched in the 80s or early 90s for the best guard in the universe dance in guard has changed, prove to me you understand the changes. You can't understand dance unless you can do it either, so all of those judges should be dancers. And if you are judging, you better be able to dance well.

Are you saying that Martha Graham in her 70s would have been a poor judge of movement and dance because she wouldn't be able to do what her 20 year old students were capable of doing? Dance basics are dance basics. If the elements are there, they are easily seen by someone who has been trained in dance. I'm sure Mikhail Barishnokov (sp?) would also be a horrible judge, as would anyone over the age of 50 who is not able to do the same dance as their students, but can explain to them exactly how it should be done and make it look exactly the way it should look.

Also, where are these judges going to come from? The guards you mentioned previously are at THE TOP of the movement scoring in WGI, and if they're as awful as you say, then the judges can't come from members of the top guards...and if the judges are teachers at those guards, well, that won't work either.

Suggestions?

Edited December 3, 2007 by quegrawks