Michael Boo Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Can't we all be friends? :) Drum corps: Good. Passion about what we believe in: Good. I believe if any of us had no respect for the others, we wouldn't be giving them the time of day. We would just be ignoring each other's points. I hope the fact that we have been involved in stimulated debate on issues is a sign that we respect each others' views enough to spend our time in response. Anyhow, June can't get here soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcat Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Can't we all be friends? :)Drum corps: Good. Passion about what we believe in: Good. I believe if any of us had no respect for the others, we wouldn't be giving them the time of day. We would just be ignoring each other's points. I hope the fact that we have been involved in stimulated debate on issues is a sign that we respect each others' views enough to spend our time in response. Anyhow, June can't get here soon enough. We are friends, Mike. That won't change. Maybe you could answer this out loud, for the record... Which would be better, a co-ed Cavaliers, or a folded Cavaliers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusankusho Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 And history does repeat itself on a number of fronts...your attacks to divert the issue back to current rules change a prime example. Actually I'm asking a question about how on the one hand you defend keeping the "all male" rules (demographics) for 2 corps on the basis of tradition, while you are so in favour of overriding tradition on the other hand. I'm just curious at how you decide which traditions are important to you and which are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Bari Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Is instrumentation really "tradition," or is it the beliefs and customs most drum corps have subscribed to over the years? Sure the methods have changed, but the end product is still producing a show for the football field, the experiences had, etc. If we're going to argue that instrumentation should not change due to past tradition, then let's just go back to fife & drums.Anyway, this hasn't gotten so far off track, heh. Well, this activity didn't start with fifes. It started with bugles and drums. Now, you can argue that these aren't straight bugles, but they're still brass instruments played on the musician's lips. The other musicians used a stick to hit something, and it oscillated, making a noise. A few years ago, someone made a traditional sound on the field that needed an electric power supply to be heard. And they weren't penalized for it! Starting next year, someone will push a button to make a sound. You tell me if those come from some traditional source. Tell me what "beliefs and customs" still make corps unique, and haven't changed over the years, and I might buy your argument. As far as how that is germane to this discussion? Traditionally, drum corps were representative of more classes, cultures, and colors than it is now. Some "beliefs and customs" that corps used to espouse enabled those diverse members to exist. As drum corps has given up most of those "beliefs and customs", this diversity has dwindled. As drum corps has changed to try to appeal to more people, eg become more egalitarian in product, it has become ever more elitist in membership. (Actually, DCI has become more elitist in product as well, despite its efforts.) Are the two inextricably linked? Can DCI become more diverse in membership and in product? Or has the drive to be the best eliminated the opportunity for others to be members, both from an opportunity POV (less corps to offer spots) and barrier POV (higher cost to join)? To gain more potential members and fans, would a return to a more traditional approach work? Would a network of community-based corps, using only human-powered instruments to perform fan-friendly shows, survive this time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Actually I'm asking a question about how on the one hand you defend keeping the "all male" rules (demographics) for 2 corps on the basis of tradition, while you are so in favour of overriding tradition on the other hand. I'm just curious at how you decide which traditions are important to you and which are not. I have always felt that the tradition of instrumentation in drum corps has been one of continual evolution. The fact is some feel there should be a line drawn regarding that evolution and others feel that continual evolution is good. The Cavaliers and Madison Scouts are traditionally male. Instrumentation is traditionally evolving. I hope that provides a little insight into the mechanism of my gray matter. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meaghatron Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) Actually I'm asking a question about how on the one hand you defend keeping the "all male" rules (demographics) for 2 corps on the basis of tradition, while you are so in favour of overriding tradition on the other hand. I'm just curious at how you decide which traditions are important to you and which are not. Considering The Cavaliers began as a boy scout troop, it makes sense that they wouldn't change their all-male policy. Secondly, drum corps isn't changing. DCI is changing what THEIR drum corps look like. It just so happens that DCI has the largest hold on the drum corps activity. Just because DCI is changing THEIR traditions doesn't mean that all drum corps in the entire world are changing. So technically, only one organization is changing. (Edit: I used the word "changing" a lot in that post. Ugh.) Edited February 20, 2008 by i_play_percussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) Which would be better, a co-ed Cavaliers, or a folded Cavaliers? Wish you'd warn me before you trigger a flashback like this one... 1972 Westshoremen-Bonnie Scots - all male and almost all over 21 (exceptions were "invitees") 1973 no corps 1974 Westshoremen - male/female and lot of minors (including 16 year old moi) as was only way to field a corps. Lot of the older "Senior" corps opened up the ranks to females and minors to either stay competative or just plain ####### SURVIVE. Even the mainstays in Hawthorne and NYC. There are 'traditions' then there is what is best for the group. Just like adding dem dar' extra doo-hickies on the horns to get ALL the notes. Edited February 20, 2008 by JimF-3rdBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcat Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I have always felt that the tradition of instrumentation in drum corps has been one of continual evolution. The fact is some feel there should be a line drawn regarding that evolution and others feel that continual evolution is good. The Cavaliers and Madison Scouts are traditionally male. Instrumentation is traditionally evolving. I hope that provides a little insight into the mechanism of my gray matter. :) Tradition re: instrumentation == constant change Tradition re: Fraternal corps == not changing Yep. All clear. Hard to believe anyone didn't just pick that right up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusankusho Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I have always felt that the tradition of instrumentation in drum corps has been one of continual evolution. The fact is some feel there should be a line drawn regarding that evolution and others feel that continual evolution is good. The Cavaliers and Madison Scouts are traditionally male. Instrumentation is traditionally evolving. I hope that provides a little insight into the mechanism of my gray matter. :) At one time most careers were exclusively male. Traditionally to the time of the Greeks the right to vote was traditionally male. Those and countless others have evolved (or been pressured kicking and screaming) to include women. If instrumentation change is to be regarded as evolution, why should 2 corps lag so far behind societal norms in the gender arena? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusankusho Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Considering The Cavaliers began as a boy scout troop, it makes sense that they wouldn't change their all-male policy. To re-word what I just said to Michael, voting began as an all-male activity too. Was that change a good thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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