jjeffeory Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Okay history buffs, was this true a generation ago too?HH If 85-95 is a generation ago... I'd say, Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusankusho Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Why is it so important to you to keep harping on it when I've answered it, but apparently not to your satisfaction? It's never to your satisfaction. You cannot be pleased by my answers, so why should I bend over backwards to keep answering your harangues...over and over again? Shame on me for falling into your trap by even trying. You have answered it? By saying it's tradition? That's your answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusankusho Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 As a traveling private youth organization that has shared sleeping quarters, extremely close travel arrangements, often shared showers, etc., the argument that an organization would prefer to not have the potential liabilities of a mixed-gender youth environment is more than acceptable from a legal point of view. This decision is not necessarily based on discrimination or even tradition, but could simply be based on the level of risk tolerance of the organization in terms of potential liabilities and distractions that come with a mixed gender environment. Example: no member of the Cavaliers has ever become pregnant on tour... though that is certainly not the case in the genuine history of all organizations. It should be fully respected that some organizations elect not to expose themselves to certain potential liabilities. Additionally, it should be considered that some parents would feel more confident in sending their children off in the care of an organization that is not mixed gender, and that there may be some cases where if there were not a single gender option, then the parents may have prohibited them from participation. Gender-specific participation, in the context of youth, cannot be compared to a similar sort of restriction for adults, and is extremely distant from the concept of racial or religious exclusion. Do you really think that the reasoning behind all male corps is "so nobody gets knocked up"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Would it be acceptable if all but two corps allowed Hispanics? Not under current law as I know it. Of course gender and "race" are two separate things. Race is subjective and depends a lot upon where you live. ( Thank you Race and Racism class). There is no genetic test to determine race. There are variations in appearance in every racial group. You may be considered one race in the US, but another in France, for example... Race is a very complicated category. Gender is "pretty" cut-and-dry. You're either a male, or a female. I know, there are birth defects that happen in nature, but there are genetic tests that can be done to determine sex, etc.... LOL... We should try to stay on topic. Discussing gender in drum corps has nothing to do with the ethnic diversity in drum corps. Sorry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCIHasBeen Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) As a father of two girls I do have a problem with gender barriers, yes. Since you replied to my question with a question, I'll do the same for your second point. Is the experience offered by a single gender group in some way more beneficial than a mixed group? More beneficial? Hhhmnnnn. That's a judgement call. Different type of experience? Most definitely. I don't have a problem with the all-male corps and don't think that they should be forced to open their doors to female members in the service of equality, political correctness or any other such nonsense. It's a fraternal experience which is fundamentally different from a co-ed experience. Both corps would, no doubt, do things a bit differently than they would if there were females in the membership and that would lead to a different experience. As a member of a very old fraternal organization, I hear a lot of folks making waves that my fraternity should open its membership to women. Some folks are going to the trouble of trying to have our facilities classified as "places of public accomodation" in the hopes of having the courts force us to accept women as members of our brotherhood. The majority of us feel that we have always been a fraternity and that making the fraternity into a co-ed organization would so fundamentally change the kind of experience we provide to our brothers, that the nature of the fraternity would be ruined. I believe the same can be said for all-male drum corps. At the same time, restriction of instrumentation has, in the past, made drum corps a different type of experience (different sound, etc.) than marching bands. I feel that opening up drum corps to all manner of instrumentation would fundamentally change the drum corps performance experience in a manner that would, for me at least, ruin that experience. I think both views are consistent with each other. Edited February 20, 2008 by DCIHasBeen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 You have answered it? By saying it's tradition? That's your answer? Yikes! Like I said... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusankusho Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 It can be, absolutely. There are many in this country that feel that single gender schools are the way to go. Girls won't be staring at the guy 2 seats down 'cause there's no guy there, guys won't be competing and fighting each other over a girl, etc. The experience may not be more beneficial for everyone, but it can be for many. Obviously there are 270 (300 next year) drum corps guys who think it's beneficial each year.300... lol... "THIS... IS... ALL MALE CORPS!!!!" How does placing kids into a situation that in no way parallels real life prepare them for real life? And again, is this supposed to be the reasoning behind an all male corps? That they will be too busy checking each other out to clean the show? Because if it is you'd have to also exclude gays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 More beneficial? Hhhmnnnn. That's a judgement call. Different type of experience? Most definitely.I don't have a problem with the all-male corps and don't think that they should be forced to open their doors to female members in the service of equality, political correctness or any other such nonsense. It's a fraternal experience with is fundamentally different from a co-ed experience. Both corps, no doubt, do things a bit differently than they would if there were females in the membership and that would lead to a different experience. As a member of a very old fraternal organization, I hear a lot of folks making waves that my fraternity should open its membership to women. Some folks are going to the trouble of trying to have our facilities classified as "places of public accomodation" in the hopes of having the courts force us to accept women as members of our brotherhood. The majority of us feel that we have always been a fraternity and that making the fraternity into a co-ed organization would so fundamentally change the kind of experience we provide to our brothers, that the nature of the fraternity would be ruined. I believe the same can be said for all-male drum corps. At the same time, restriction of instrumentation has, in the past, made drum corps a different type of experience (different sound, etc.) than marching bands. I feel that opening up drum corps to all manner of instrumentation would fundamentally change the drum corps performance experience in a manner that would, for me at least, ruin that experience. I think both views are consistent with each other. You may be the wisest person on DCP. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meaghatron Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 The answer on The Cavaliers website regarding why they are all-male... Question: "Are The Cavaliers all-male?" Answer: "Yes. More than 60 years ago, Chicago Logan Square Boy Scout Troop # 111 was participating in a Boy Scout activity in Chicago's Grant Park. Scoutmaster Donald W. Warren wandered across the street to Soldier Field to see what some of the other scouting groups were doing. There, he witnessed the Racine Explorer Scouts performing in a scout drum corps exhibition or competition. The rest is history. In the fall of 1948 Don Warren organized his willing troop members into their own drum corps, soon to be called The Cavaliers. While drum and bugle corps and the world have changed dramatically, the Cavaliers have kept the all-male marching member tradition throughout their history and it continues to this day. Even though the marching corps is male only, the Cavaliers have many incredible women whose support has made the corps successful. These Moms, sisters, friends, girlfriends, daughters, wives, and others have been absolutely vital to The Cavaliers. Further, to paraphrase Mr. Paul Scherbak: It's not that The Cavaliers think men can do it better, or that women couldn't hack it, it's that they want to rejoice in the brotherhood that can only be felt by working, sweating, and bleeding with other men. It's a special type of bond. There are a lot of excellent corps out there that accept women; The Cavaliers do not. Is The Cavaliers being all-male what makes them great? No, it's part of what makes them The Cavaliers." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusankusho Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Yikes!Like I said... Humour me Micheal. Because going back over this conversation I don't see anything beyond "that's how it's always been" - and you know you have good reason not to say that to me, all things and threads considered.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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