Blue Devils 2007

[Jeff Ream]

I asked the question because a lot of people have misconceptions of what DCI is and the powers that be. Some think its some evil corporation with guys in suits in some tall office building somewhere. In reality, its just a non-profit organization that looks after a group of non-profits and its governance is made up primarily of the corps participating in the league. When people criticize or applaud DCI, they are doing that to basically the corps themselves not some third party with bad intentions.

corps directors, not the corps themselves. the kids get no vote

[sburstall]

I asked the question because a lot of people have misconceptions of what DCI is and the powers that be. Some think its some evil corporation with guys in suits in some tall office building somewhere. In reality, its just a non-profit organization that looks after a group of non-profits and its governance is made up primarily of the corps participating in the league. When people criticize or applaud DCI, they are doing that to basically the corps themselves not some third party with bad intentions.

And because the corps directors are the member of board ("DCI") each will do what is best for themselves and propose ideas that will reflect that. That is why since it's inception there has always been a charge of conflict of interest from many people (including Bill Cook).

[Dale Bari]

In reality, its just a non-profit organization that looks after a group of non-profits and its governance is made up primarily of the corps participating in the league.

Well, just a minor tweak to this:

and its governance is made up primarily of the corps participating indominating the league.

As some others have pointed out (I alluded to it, but didn't make it clear), the corps that vote on the rules changes are the 12 who succeed most in the circuit. The conflict of interest is that the corps that do well in competition (as adjudicated by the judges that DCI hires) run the Board, hence run DCI. But, if those corps are DCI and DCI hires the judges, then the corps that succeed in competition hire the people who certify that they succeed.

As if that conflict isn't bad enough, the corps that are most successful also propose, debate, and approve rules that govern what and how every corps conducts itself in the competitions. Talk about "the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer!"

I'm not claiming that the DCI board out-and-out cheats, but outside of Congress, I can't find a clearer example of potential conflicts of interest abounding in one org. The line from "Animal Farm" comes to mind: All animals are equal, except some are more equal than the others. Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that there're not more complaints.

Just think of the scandals that might proliferate if the amateur figure skaters controlled their judging and rulesmaking in the same way, instead of being bound by the ISU.

Even in the pro sports leagues, ALL teams participating get an equal say in how their respective leagues are run, and the referees/umpires are represented by unions, so they are not directly under their leagues' control.

So, yes DCI is not some malicious entity that imposes its will on the corps from outside (that more accurately describes pre-DCI drum corps), but it is not pure as the wind-driven snow. Human nature being what it is, that the system is not abused more frequently is a blessing.

[pags]

Do you remember that part in How the Grinch Stole Christmas (with Jim Carey) where he comes out of seclusion to be the cheermeister, sees the two women who helped raise him, and looks at them with shocked disdain, saying, "Are you two still living???"?....that's how I feel about this thread...

[corps-mudgeon]

Do you remember that part in How the Grinch Stole Christmas (with Jim Carey) where he comes out of seclusion to be the cheermeister, sees the two women who helped raise him, and looks at them with shocked disdain, saying, "Are you two still living???"?....that's how I feel about this thread...

Why do you feel this way? Should the Grinch have felt that way?

[Phantom&Phitch]

Do you remember that part in How the Grinch Stole Christmas (with Jim Carey) where he comes out of seclusion to be the cheermeister, sees the two women who helped raise him, and looks at them with shocked disdain, saying, "Are you two still living???"?....that's how I feel about this thread...

and yet you still read, post, and bump it up... weird.

[glory]

...the corps that vote on the rules changes are the 12 who succeed most in the circuit. The conflict of interest is that the corps that do well in competition (as adjudicated by the judges that DCI hires) run the Board, hence run DCI. But, if those corps are DCI and DCI hires the judges, then the corps that succeed in competition hire the people who certify that they succeed.

As if that conflict isn't bad enough, the corps that are most successful also propose, debate, and approve rules that govern what and how every corps conducts itself in the competitions. Talk about "the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer!"

I'm not claiming that the DCI board out-and-out cheats

Not sure what this has to do with BD breaking the rules, but I’ll respond nonetheless.

If such a conspiracy existed, how is it that so many co-conspirators are so willing to accept second-tier status? Mark Arnold and Blue Knights surely are part of the 12 to whom you refer, the 12 who make the rules and use their rules to their advantage, you say. So if this group really is plotting against the rest of DCI, why don’t Blue Knights or Glassmen or anyone who’s not BD, Cavies or Cadets get their shot at the top?

I’ll answer. Because there is no such conspiracy. If you believe conspiracy is too aggressive a term, there’s also no such collusion against the best interest of DCI and its corps.

DCI still runs on the principle that each corps gets one vote and one vote only. Anytime those who aren’t finishing in the top three or the top six want to, they have the power to change the rules to suit their whim. The balance of the votes in DCI is with the corps not collecting the top prize money; anytime they want to change the system, they have the votes to do so.

The system is what it’s meant to and should be: the corps control themselves. Why would it be any other way?

HH

Edited June 5, 2008 by glory

[Liam]

We're going down a little different path here, conversation-wise ... but I do think it's valid to talk about where DCI is at in its power structure and rules process to help put in context the environment under which rules enforcement takes place.

So, with that said -- I guess I basically agree with glory's post above. Any group dynamics have folks on the extreme ends and most actual progress gets made (or not made) with the assent of the middle. Look at politics -- there are folks on the far left and right which basically disagree on everything and cancel each other out. It is their ability to sway the middle towards action or inaction that wins the day. Same thing here -- as long as there is one-corps-one-vote, the interests of the Top 6 and the Bottom 6 may never meld, but it is the middle 10 or 12 that swing the direction of the organization. You may not like the choices that this middle 10 have made, but I wouldn't categorize it conspiratorial or even selfish in any way -- it's just the current trend of the middle.

If we don't like the direction that some of these "middle" folks have taken, we can lobby, we can inform, etc., but I don't think it's fair to say that they have been hoodwinked or are otherwise in cahoots with the "powerful".

Gotta say -- notwithstanding some tangents, some semantic arguments, and some over-the-top accusations and language, this has been a pretty good thread with lots of heady discussion!!!

[Liam]

To add on to my previous post:

A few months ago there was a potential proposal to restirct the board to the Top 9 finishers. (I'm simplifying the proposal and it never came to be anyway, so please don't jump on my lack of details here !!! :big hug:).

I was rather vocal against the proposal -- not because I have anything againt the Top 9 directors or for any other personal/personlity reason, and also not because I thought the directors would do anything dastardly or evil. My argument was simply that human nature and, in fact, organizational responsibility calls on each director to make decisions based on what they perceive to be in the best interests of their individual corps. There's nothing wrong or selfish about that -- it's simply a recognition that the issues and challenges that the Blue Devils (for example) face, both on and off the field, are different than the issues and challenges of Pioneer (for example). To ask the Blue Devils to understand what Pioneer faces is simply not possible, and vice-versa. So DCI as an organization works best, imo, when all these divergent corps each have a equal say based on their own individual perspectives. The direction that DCI then goes is based on that collective momentum.

One corps -- one vote -- equal representation from each perspective level. That is the best formula for success, imo. Do I disagree with the outcomes sometimes? Sure. Is it possible that some directors aren't using all their critical thinking powers in this process? Maybe -- and that's why it's important that we (the paying customers and otherwise interested observers) keep them honest thru discussions such as this on DCP and thru other means. But I have never accused, or ever believed, that there was any evil intent or conspiracy against the little guy. Ths shortcomings I see in DCI are procedural and structural -- not personal.

Anyway, just my take on the state of things as it relates to/affects this particular topic. Good discussion!!!

[Dale Bari]

Not sure what this has to do with BD breaking the rules, but I’ll respond nonetheless.

If such a conspiracy existed, how is it that so many co-conspirators are so willing to accept second-tier status? Mark Arnold and Blue Knights surely are part of the 12 to whom you refer, the 12 who make the rules and use their rules to their advantage, you say. So if this group really is plotting against the rest of DCI, why don’t Blue Knights or Glassmen or anyone who’s not BD, Cavies or Cadets get their shot at the top?

I’ll answer. Because there is no such conspiracy. If you believe conspiracy is too aggressive a term, there’s also no such collusion against the best interest of DCI and its corps.

DCI still runs on the principle that each corps gets one vote and one vote only. Anytime those who aren’t finishing in the top three or the top six want to, they have the power to change the rules to suit their whim. The balance of the votes in DCI is with the corps not collecting the top prize money; anytime they want to change the system, they have the votes to do so.

The system is what it’s meant to and should be: the corps control themselves. Why would it be any other way?

HH

I wasn't saying there is/was a conspiracy; just that there's a smidge of a possibility that there could be. Others who are inclined to see conspiracies use the way conflicts of interest could arise in DCI as evidence that they exist. I am not one of those people, but I'm not blind to the possibility.

Your take is not completely accurate: Not every corps in DCI has a vote on the board. So, not all corps are in control of their activity. And the way DCI is structured, they never will. I'm not saying that that's evil or even merely bad, but it is a fact. Since there is very little turnover in the Top 12, (how many corps not in the Top 12 in 2007 were there in the last decade?) a corps like Pioneer or Troopers will never have a chance even to help call the shots. And forget the Open Corps; they, by definition, will never sit in the VIP seats. An objective observer will quickly note the caste system entrenched at DCI.

Sure, the rest of the Top 12 could work together to, in some way, marginalize the Cadets, or BD, for 2 examples. But, even in your hypothetical, while corps like BK or BAC could put together a coalition to work against the Big 3, why would they? Those other corps identify far more with BD, Cadets, Cavies, than they ever will with Pioneer or Troopers. This is a different set-up than what other competitive activities/sports have. Either all competitors are completely submissive to the rules-making bodies, ala figure skating & the NCAA, or all competitors have a voice in setting the rules of their competition, ala NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL. Last time I checked all of those activities dwarfed DCI in popularity. I'd venture to say varsity water polo has more fans than DCI does.

How we got here:

Someone asked a question of who I meant when I said "powers-that-be". While there are other interests involved, it all comes back to the DCI Board. It has to do with the BD alleged rules violation only tangentially: having these electronic gizmos is what set this slow-motion train wreck of a thread in motion. You asked me who "they" was, when I said, "They WANT these toys." Again, it is the DCI Board. Who can clear up this rules (both the legality of certain devices and the vagueness of rules in general) issue with one wave of their hands? The DCI Board.

They hold ultimate responsibility here.