The Official 2008 Madison Scouts Discussion Thread

[BigSnareline]

The Staff and the members of the corps may not care about the scores, but the parents of members do care. And the fans care. We are the ones who financially support DCI. Without out our money by attending competitions or joining fan network, or otherwise supporting DCI, there would be no DCI. "No bucks, no Buck Rogers." Parents and fans have every right to rant and complain about the scoring, and I don't care what any of you alums say to the contrary. Us parents have contributed financially big time for this investment for our kids, and we don't like the kind of sorry ### scoring we are seeing from the judges. If the judging seemed equitable, I wouldn't mind it. But I still have not heard a reasonable explanation why one judge in San Antonio can judge the percussion in 4th place and the other judge in 11th. That's not equitable, and there is no excuse for the difference. Not one of you have come up with a reasonable or fair explanation, and I challenge you to do so, because you can't. As long as my money is going into the DCI coffers, I have an absolute right to complain about scores!! 'Nuff said.

What he said!

[whitedawn]

But I still have not heard a reasonable explanation why one judge in San Antonio can judge the percussion in 4th place and the other judge in 11th. That's not equitable, and there is no excuse for the difference. Not one of you have come up with a reasonable or fair explanation, and I challenge you to do so, because you can't.

wasn't one in the box and one on the field?

wouldn't they therefore be judging different things? if so, it is completely reasonable to get differing scores from judges who are essentially judging different captions.

[DantheOldMan]

wasn't one in the box and one on the field?

wouldn't they therefore be judging different things? if so, it is completely reasonable to get differing scores from judges who are essentially judging different captions.

Not a difference of 7 places. I can see 4th and 6th place, but not 4th and 11th. There is no excuse for that kind of difference.

[lnavis]

Not a difference of 7 places. I can see 4th and 6th place, but not 4th and 11th. There is no excuse for that kind of difference.

I asked the same question earlier in this forum.

I agree with you that that's too much of a spread.

[Tom Brace]

The Staff and the members of the corps may not care about the scores, but the parents of members do care. And the fans care. We are the ones who financially support DCI. Without out our money by attending competitions or joining fan network, or otherwise supporting DCI, there would be no DCI. "No bucks, no Buck Rogers." Parents and fans have every right to rant and complain about the scoring, and I don't care what any of you alums say to the contrary. Us parents have contributed financially big time for this investment for our kids, and we don't like the kind of sorry ### scoring we are seeing from the judges. If the judging seemed equitable, I wouldn't mind it. But I still have not heard a reasonable explanation why one judge in San Antonio can judge the percussion in 4th place and the other judge in 11th. That's not equitable, and there is no excuse for the difference. Not one of you have come up with a reasonable or fair explanation, and I challenge you to do so, because you can't. As long as my money is going into the DCI coffers, I have an absolute right to complain about scores!! 'Nuff said.

Dan I appreciate all of the sentiments, however, it is not incongruous that two judges, judging the same category, would see things differently. The judges do not stand side by side taking notes on what passes by. They see things from different points and differing points of view as well.

If drum corps was just based on timing...the time you were at the gate, the time to set up, the time on the field and the time you exited the field, we would have an objective measurement of how well each corps did. The subject nature of drum corps has always been of how judges interpret the show occuring between a corps entering and exiting the field. I think the new wrinkle added is having more than one percussion judge for Regional shows. We'll see how the experiment works out after the year....this was a pilot. I understand fully how vastly different a 4th and 11th place score sounds. However, from differing vantage points, it is concievable two judges could have vastly differing takes on a single performance.

[Tom Brace]

I asked the same question earlier in this forum.

I agree with you that that's too much of a spread.

because....the judges should compare notes after the corp performed..."what did you give them?" I don't know...what did you give them?" "well, that's too high." "well, that's too low." "Ok, I'll change mine." Is that what we want?

[oldtimedrummer]

Not a difference of 7 places. I can see 4th and 6th place, but not 4th and 11th. There is no excuse for that kind of difference.

I agree with your point for sure. Obviously one of them is wrong, or perhaps, the correct number is somewhere in the middle. I'm not trying to make excuses, but maybe one of them was more focused on the pit, with the other on the battery? I will promise you that the two judges in question discussed this situation, and will re-evaluate their numbers. Judges really want to get it right, and I bet they're as bothered by this as anyone. These things happen from time to time. (and have been happening for years for the oldies that want to jump DCI). In the end, the judges will get it right.

Edited July 25, 2008 by oldtimedrummer

[DantheOldMan]

because....the judges should compare notes after the corp performed..."what did you give them?" I don't know...what did you give them?" "well, that's too high." "well, that's too low." "Ok, I'll change mine." Is that what we want?

We're not saying that the judges should be comparing notes. The problem is relative position. How can one judge pick the Scouts' percussion line 4th out of 12 corps, and the other judge 11th? We assume that both judges saw all 12 corps. I am an old snare drummer myself, and I can usually pick relative position between percussion lines. So, relative to the other 11 corps, there is just no justifiable reason for the difference. That one judge kept the Scouts out of evening performance at San Antonio. I don't care what they were looking at, and why they came up with divergent scores. This is just flat wrong. Is this like the Olympics, and you have to just say "well, that was the Russian Judge, so what do you expect?" I expect better of DCI.

[Tom Brace]

We're not saying that the judges should be comparing notes. The problem is relative position. How can one judge pick the Scouts' percussion line 4th out of 12 corps, and the other judge 11th? We assume that both judges saw all 12 corps. I am an old snare drummer myself, and I can usually pick relative position between percussion lines. So, relative to the other 11 corps, there is just no justifiable reason for the difference. That one judge kept the Scouts out of evening performance at San Antonio. I don't care what they were looking at, and why they came up with divergent scores. This is just flat wrong. Is this like the Olympics, and you have to just say "well, that was the Russian Judge, so what do you expect?" I expect better of DCI.

Here's where you and I disagree. Neither judge kept the Scouts out of the evening competition. The Scouts did not perform as well as the 12 corps who were in the evening contest. I could argue the Visual Ensemble judge got the score wrong, or the guard judge got it wrong. Prosperie takes the heat and evidently he got it wrong but the other percussion judge who had them in 4th got it right?

The greatest thing about scales is that they tip in either direction. Perhaps the judge who had them in 4th should have had them in 8th...then the 11th place position doesn't seem so out of place.

When the Scouts perform at a higher level than Crossmen, 12th place will be theirs. But, I won't be satisfied until they are back in the single digits....think 8th folks....8th....neck and neck with Bluecoats....then we plan our assault on the top 5!!!!

GO SCOUTS!!!

and pay your dues out there....I heard yesterday was about a $2500 day with a little over $1000 of it coming from alums. Not bad, but I believe it can get better...Let's just get out there and raise $50K by August 7, opening day of finals week.

Let's get the dues paid guys.

[DantheOldMan]

Prosperie takes the heat and evidently he got it wrong but the other percussion judge who had them in 4th got it right? The greatest thing about scales is that they tip in either direction. Perhaps the judge who had them in 4th should have had them in 8th...then the 11th place position doesn't seem so out of place.

Tom, you have to agree with me on this fact. One judge got it wrong. No other explanation is acceptable. Whether it is the judge that placed them 4th, or the judge that placed them 11th. One judge was wrong. Now, without disrespecting the other corps, lets look at who judge #2 (and I will not use his name) said played better: Troopers (10th), Mandarins 9th, Colts 8th, Crossmen 7th, the Academy 6th, Pacific Crest 5th, Blue Stars 4th, Glassmen 3rd, Blue Knights 2nd, and Spirit 1st. Now, the corps that I have highlighted, IMHO, I do not believe that their percussion lines came anywhere as close to the Scouts percussion line at San Antonio. Feel free to watch all 12 shows on Fan Network. I have. I cannot believe that these percussion lines are anywhere near Scouts. I don't know what instrument you played, but I marched snare drum for 16 years, so I happen to know percussion. There is no way that Mandarins outplayed the Scouts. That relationship alone is inexcusable. So, don't look at scores, look at shows and look at relationships. If you can tell me honestly and with sincerity that you believe that the Mandarins outplayed the Scouts, I will shut up. If not, you can understand why I am so upset about the scoring. NO EXCUSE DCI. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED.