hornlines 08

[brassmeaway]

GE rewards volume, does it not?

I've heard many top 12 hornlines that were "loud" all the way to finals, but never in tune. Likewise, I've heard many bottom 12 hornlines that had a GREAT sound, but just couldn't project.

Both are needed, but I don't think both are rewarded equally.

[Phantombari1]

Yawn...I understand your point to a degree but there is no point in a drum corp show where I concern myself with how educated the corp members are becoming. Some like yourself might get a tingle from the sound coming from the Cavaliers last year while others like myself felt let down. (IMO) It was like a fancy sport car without and engine. All show and no go...Mind you the product itself was stellar but the horn sound did not match the look. Clean yes but powerful no.

It's all about taste...The attraction to the forbidden candy bar might only be a delight for a night but it's well worth it. In this case a moment on the lips doesn't convert to a lifetime on the hips.

Edited June 25, 2008 by Phantombari1

[Wildabeast]

BD & SCV fo sho! While I enjoyed Mandarins, I think they could put out a little more despite not having the same numbers.

[audiodb]

Please, discuss my comments if you wish - but do so in a cerebral fashion. The "you suck" or whatever is funny, but it's also a reflection of the replyer. If you have something to say, make it a college answer - maybe you might even change my mind - if you are convincing enough!

I doubt I'll change your mind....but your post does deserve a response.

The whole premise of this thread is such a disappointment to me. I understand - "loud" hornlines are fun to listen to and it's great to have your facial hair peeled off your face from a screaming trumpet player. But - here is my question:

The mentality of almost every other section of the modern drum corps has developed to be cerebral and intelligent in ways of design and execution EXCEPT the hornline. Why is that?

I think that hornlines have changed their mentality toward performance in clearly audible ways. Pick any year and compare recordings from that year to those from a decade earlier, and there will be distinct differences. Dynamic variety, shaping and control have evolved step-by-step over the entire history of the activity. Tone quality has developed greatly. Intonation has improved, at times due to equipment changes, and at other times through teaching the players to listen and correct. Balance and blend....need I say more?

I realize - YES, we have B-flat horns now and YES we have 3-4 button tubas and whatever - I understand the actual developments in the equipment.

To maintain a cerebral conversation, you'll want to refer to them as "valves", not "buttons".

But the end expectation is still the same: louder. While loud is good, a characteristic sound is better.

So it seems you think volume is pursued at the expense of tone quality.

I can't tell you how many talented euphonium and trombone players treat their marching baritone like a bass trumpet. There are so many occasions where I'll hear a tuba player red line his/her sound and distort rather than resonate. If only all of our mellophone players truly treated the instrument as what it can be: an alto voice with a beautiful french horn sound. Can it not be done? Refer to Cavaliers 2005 - incredible french horn sound from those mellophones.

So it seems you think volume is pursued at the expense of tone quality.

Our hornline caption heads are constantly searching for talented instrumentalists from colleges and universities. However, the drum corps industry is in a constant fight of validity from music professors. Why? If I were a trumpet professor and I heard 95% of the drum corps today forcing sound, I'd can the idea of drum corps altogether.

Do you think 95% of today's hornlines are "forcing sound"?

Advocates of loud over characteristic sound will make all sorts of excuses - "this is not an orchestra" or "this is how drum corps is supposed to sound" or "marching instruments are designed for this sort of playing" - the list goes on and on, as I'm sure it will after I press "Add reply".

So it seems you think volume is pursued at the expense of tone quality. OK, I get the message. I do not agree, however. Perhaps it is from having a long-term perspective on brass performance, having played in marching music groups dating back to 1979. Anyone who thinks that today's brass sections go for loudness regardless of tone will quickly realize their oversight upon recalling (or hearing recordings of) the sounds of marching brass circa 1979.

As a music educator, my goal would be for the drum corps organizations to promote music and educate show-goers on what a quality brass ensemble should sound like. Indoor playing characteristics should be the same as outdoor playing characteristics.

To an extent, that is true....but the ensemble sound required to communicate to an audience under the conditions of a drum corps show is markedly different from that of an indoor concert (or even an outdoor concert). Stadiums, a large ensemble marching all over a football field, an audience of thousands....this environment demands a different blend and style of sound than that of the concert hall.

Most of the fundamental qualities of proper brass playing still apply. Playing in tune is just as relevant. Quality tone sounds good both indoors and out. Balance and blend still sound better than their opposites. But the nature of drum corps lends itself to greater exploitation of the dynamic range that brass can achieve. Two reasons why:

1. The softest sounds are lost in the venue due to ambient noise, crowd noise, distance from the performers, performer positioning, and lack of concert-hall acoustic reinforcement.

2. In most other ensembles, brass must balance with woodwinds and/or strings, which are not as loud as brass player-for-player. In drum corps, brass has only percussion to balance with, and is free to (or required to) utilize the upper portion of their dynamic range as a result.

To adapt a Wynton Marsalis quote: "The sound most drum corps hornlines may make us feel good, like a candy bar feels good, but there's no nutrition. The foundation of any music education cannot be found in "louder and higher".

So it seems you think volume is pursued at the expense of....well, you know. Seriously, though, it was never just about "louder and higher". And over time, "louder and higher" have been de-emphasized relative to other attributes which are more widely valued by the educators you refer to. But drum corps brass will never sound exactly like the concert-hall experience....and thus, some academics will never embrace it.

[Perry S]

I find validity in some of the points Presque Isle Brass has made. I think to state that 95% of hornlines are forcing sound is an overstatement. I find most hornlines try to balance wonderfully musical moments with moments af sheer volume. I think that both belong in Drum Corps. I love beautifully phrased and properly played soft moments when the tonal balance and sonority are very moving and I find that does happen. I also love the moments when my ears are being pinned back. Quite a few Corps give us our meat and our candy bar.

[YEAguy]

Im not going to say you suck...

Im not going to say you're wrong

Im also NOT going to give you a cerebral answer

Im just going to say ... I. dont. care.

I mean that in the most polite way possible....seriously

Nick --- I seriously ... wish you would pull the Cadets reference from your comments. I am old enough to know that not all can be affected in a positive fashion my experiences in life but ... wow ... sometimes ... I just cannot believed we passed in the night. And for 3 years no less.

At the very least ... can you make sure that your signature reflects that your association with the Cadets is very much in the past.

Per the thread .... the poster had great comments, good insight, and an interesting perspective. Can we not show respect? Just a tad?

Anyway ...

I guess I am grumpy this morning. I have learned to be silent ... but ... after this "comeback" ,,, I really do wish you would try to distance yourself from the past a little?

[DevTrev]

The whole premise of this thread is such a disappointment to me. I understand - "loud" hornlines are fun to listen to and it's great to have your facial hair peeled off your face from a screaming trumpet player. But - here is my question:

The mentality of almost every other section of the modern drum corps has developed to be cerebral and intelligent in ways of design and execution EXCEPT the hornline. Why is that?

I realize - YES, we have B-flat horns now and YES we have 3-4 button tubas and whatever - I understand the actual developments in the equipment. But the end expectation is still the same: louder. While loud is good, a characteristic sound is better. I can't tell you how many talented euphonium and trombone players treat their marching baritone like a bass trumpet. There are so many occasions where I'll hear a tuba player red line his/her sound and distort rather than resonate. If only all of our mellophone players truly treated the instrument as what it can be: an alto voice with a beautiful french horn sound. Can it not be done? Refer to Cavaliers 2005 - incredible french horn sound from those mellophones.

Our hornline caption heads are constantly searching for talented instrumentalists from colleges and universities. However, the drum corps industry is in a constant fight of validity from music professors. Why? If I were a trumpet professor and I heard 95% of the drum corps today forcing sound, I'd can the idea of drum corps altogether. Advocates of loud over characteristic sound will make all sorts of excuses - "this is not an orchestra" or "this is how drum corps is supposed to sound" or "marching instruments are designed for this sort of playing" - the list goes on and on, as I'm sure it will after I press "Add reply".

As a music educator, my goal would be for the drum corps organizations to promote music and educate show-goers on what a quality brass ensemble should sound like. Indoor playing characteristics should be the same as outdoor playing characteristics. Volume can be different - for sure - but the physical way you perceive your own sound should NOT change when you step on the football field.

Ok, so - I realize to this point, most people have read this post and thought, what an egotistical conservatory ########. You'd be surprised to find quite the opposite. I've just chosen to prefer a brass sound that is acceptable to educators and experts in the field of music education and performance.

To adapt a Wynton Marsalis quote: "The sound most drum corps hornlines may make us feel good, like a candy bar feels good, but there's no nutrition. The foundation of any music education cannot be found in "louder and higher". That’s not how you train the ears of a musician or even a non-musician. That’s not how you lead kids into a deeper understanding of who they are or who they will be, which is even more important. We’re depriving them of a fundamental part of their educational development, and our nation is really much poorer for it." -> it may be a stretch, but there are some valid points in there.

Please, discuss my comments if you wish - but do so in a cerebral fashion. The "you suck" or whatever is funny, but it's also a reflection of the replyer. If you have something to say, make it a college answer - maybe you might even change my mind - if you are convincing enough!

When I read this, you reminded me of a famous quote from HG Wells. "Self-righteous morality is jealousy with a halo"

You are implying that educators in drum corps do not teach quality of sound and that the way a hornline plays is somehow unintelligent or below your standards as a musician. How insulting to the many brilliant people that have taught drum corps over the years. Since the Blue Devils are mentioned here, and they do have the most brass trophies, would you say Wayne Downey does not teach proper technique or quality of sound? I have been taught by him and after years of schooling and being taught by many different professors, few could even hold a candle to him.

You seem to be upset that a drum corps doesn't sound like an orchestra. Do you also think that a jazz band should sound like an orchestra? The way you approach playing trumpet in jazz is entirely different than in an orchestral setting. A jazz trumpet would not blend in an orchestra, yet would you say that they are playing with an uncharacteristic sound? Of course not.

You mentioned liking that the Cavalier's mellophones sounded like a french horn. The problem with that is a mello is not a french horn. A mellophone sounds like a mellophone. It does cover the alto voice, but they are two completely different instruments. True, you can make a mello sound like a french horn, but you can also make one sound like a trumpet as I'm sure many directors have heard. Why not try to make the best mellophone sound you can?

On the topic of volume. Many professors and band directors seem to be completely clueless in this area. I will tell you why volume works. It is scientifically proven that our ears prefer loud sounds. If you're listening to the radio, and a great song comes on, do you turn it down so you can enjoy the musicianship of it all? HELLO NO! You crank that sucker and rock out!! There's a reason why when you go to a rock concert, they have tons of speakers with volumes maxed. People want to feel the music.

Inside a concert hall or auditorium, an orchestra can play soft and still fill the room with sound. Yet you take that same orchestra and put them on a football field, outside, 30 yards back, at 3-4 step intervals, and even their fortisimo is going to sound like a wimper. That's just the way it is. Drum corps have to play louder to create the same effect that you would get indoors. As we've seen, some are quite good at achieving the balance of great sound with great volume. Others are not.

As much as you try to argue it;

orchestra ≠ drum corps

orchestra ≠ jazz band

orchestra ≠ rock

And don't for a second try to insinuate that great playing and teaching doesn't go on in each.

[ictrumpet]

I doubt I'll change your mind....but your post does deserve a response.

I think that hornlines have changed their mentality toward performance in clearly audible ways. Pick any year and compare recordings from that year to those from a decade earlier, and there will be distinct differences. Dynamic variety, shaping and control have evolved step-by-step over the entire history of the activity. Tone quality has developed greatly. Intonation has improved, at times due to equipment changes, and at other times through teaching the players to listen and correct. Balance and blend....need I say more?

To maintain a cerebral conversation, you'll want to refer to them as "valves", not "buttons".

So it seems you think volume is pursued at the expense of tone quality.

So it seems you think volume is pursued at the expense of tone quality.

Do you think 95% of today's hornlines are "forcing sound"?

So it seems you think volume is pursued at the expense of tone quality. OK, I get the message. I do not agree, however. Perhaps it is from having a long-term perspective on brass performance, having played in marching music groups dating back to 1979. Anyone who thinks that today's brass sections go for loudness regardless of tone will quickly realize their oversight upon recalling (or hearing recordings of) the sounds of marching brass circa 1979.

To an extent, that is true....but the ensemble sound required to communicate to an audience under the conditions of a drum corps show is markedly different from that of an indoor concert (or even an outdoor concert). Stadiums, a large ensemble marching all over a football field, an audience of thousands....this environment demands a different blend and style of sound than that of the concert hall.

Most of the fundamental qualities of proper brass playing still apply. Playing in tune is just as relevant. Quality tone sounds good both indoors and out. Balance and blend still sound better than their opposites. But the nature of drum corps lends itself to greater exploitation of the dynamic range that brass can achieve. Two reasons why:

1. The softest sounds are lost in the venue due to ambient noise, crowd noise, distance from the performers, performer positioning, and lack of concert-hall acoustic reinforcement.

2. In most other ensembles, brass must balance with woodwinds and/or strings, which are not as loud as brass player-for-player. In drum corps, brass has only percussion to balance with, and is free to (or required to) utilize the upper portion of their dynamic range as a result.

So it seems you think volume is pursued at the expense of....well, you know. Seriously, though, it was never just about "louder and higher". And over time, "louder and higher" have been de-emphasized relative to other attributes which are more widely valued by the educators you refer to. But drum corps brass will never sound exactly like the concert-hall experience....and thus, some academics will never embrace it.

I agree with you 100%! As one of the many music educators on this forum, I can tell you that there are distinct differences between forcing sound and not. That being said, there is a point at which the horn looses it's resonance due to too much air being forced through the horn. I have not heard many modern drum corps do that, however. It is true that on occasion an individual may stick out of the ensemble with a blatty tone (most commonly a tuba or mello) but rarely do you hear a hornline who consistently plays that way as a whole

[I play the baritone good]

It's silly to assume that everyone cares about "music education". I couldn't care less. I want loud, exciting hornlines... how well educated they are or whether their DCI experience will help them in futures ensembles DOES NOT matter to me. Since 2001 The Cavaliers have had the most balanced, "wind ensemble" sound of any DCI corps. They've also been the most boring in my opinion. I was worried there that too many other corps would try and emulate their sound but luckily Cadets won in 2005 and assured the world you can still play loud and place well. Since then it seems the only corps that didn't get the memo that it's ok to play loud again is The Cavaliers.

[rut-roh]

Nick --- I seriously ... wish you would pull the Cadets reference from your comments. I am old enough to know that not all can be affected in a positive fashion my experiences in life but ... wow ... sometimes ... I just cannot believed we passed in the night. And for 3 years no less.

At the very least ... can you make sure that your signature reflects that your association with the Cadets is very much in the past.

Per the thread .... the poster had great comments, good insight, and an interesting perspective. Can we not show respect? Just a tad?

Anyway ...

I guess I am grumpy this morning. I have learned to be silent ... but ... after this "comeback" ,,, I really do wish you would try to distance yourself from the past a little?

You can't be serious, George.