Intimidation vs. Leadership

[The Other Mike]

As far as High School, it may be different - since you have the kids for 4 years, and see them outside of school, you may get to know them better. Ive never worked at one school for that long - and when I do im only the 'marching band' guy, so I dont get to know them quite as well...

I actually have the possibility of having kids for 12 or 13 years since I teach a preK 3year old through 12 grade private school. Talk about getting to know your students and their families. I've been with this school off and on as either a student or as a teacher since I was first a student there in 1970. It was at this school that I met someone that brought me to a drum corps practice.

Sometimes I envy the directors who have the perfect situations and I've been offered jobs at many schools for a whole lot more money and I don't leave.

I now have kids in band who are children of former band members. Thats when it gets to be fun. It's not often you can tell a student that you stopped changing their diapers years ago and it's time to grow up.

I've been to way too many funerals of ex students and band family members, but I've also been around to see the kid that was a complete dumb### turn into a great, productive member of society. When you see two kids go through school together since 4th grade get married and then have them send their child to you for music, life doesn't get much better.

A few years ago I was called to come into the high school office at a certain time to recieve a phone call from an ex student serving in Iraq. I'd received them before so I didn't understand the big deal about this one. When I got there, his mother was there as well as his minister. Ends up that in Falugia ( sp ? ) he was on a team clearing houses and he had to shoot and kill a child pointing a gun at his group. All I could do was listen to his commanding officer as he told me that all my student wanted was to talk to me, that he felt I was the only person he felt he could cry in front of. I've always taught my kids to not be afraid of showing emotions. I sat and listened to my student and cried with him and later cried in front of Senior Band as I told them the story.

Being a band director is one of the most rewarding professions in life. Few teachers get to see kids for as many years as we do and few have the impact on them as we do.

Nick, keep up the good work and never forget that sometimes, we are THE support in a students life. You're still in your young days of being a band director yet you are seeing a good cross section of schools and situations. You will find yourself in a program for an extended period of time soon. In that quest, try and keep in mind that sometimes it's not the position that you want, as much as which program needs you the most.

Anyone can teach music, just try and use music as your medium to teach life skills and you will be rerwarded beyond your dreams.

I love having kids who I gave a start to,( be it teaching them how to hold stick, how to write drill , how to do lip trills ) come back and teach me how to better myself.

It's a payback as a young band director I never thought about.

[The Other Mike]

I think about my drum corps instructors all the time.

I joined a top twelve corps back in 1979 for two months, migrating from a smaller corps where I had marched for 3 years.

Unlike where I just came from, the instruction in this top 12 corps was hyper-macho and abusive. You know the kind of instruction I'm talking about-- the late 70's "drill sergeant" type teacher. This was when horn instructors sounded more like Mussolini than Solti. (Watching their rehearsals now, the organization has completely changed its tone for the better.) But back then, the instructors' method in this corps was to humiliate and embarrass rather than motivate and nurture. These were like October rehearsals, too, when the ranks were looking pretty thin. (Do corps have off season rehearsals anymore?) I don't mind embarrassing a kid by making him play an on-the-spot solo to let him know he hasn't been practicing enough, but for a young player like me who was dedicated, willing to learn, and just not technically proficient yet, callous, dismissive remarks from this posturing, stilted freak during our first horn rehearsals made me quit. Who needs that sh**? Go kick your dog. I'm trying to learn here.

You would think that a corps that was trying to fill out its ranks to get a full hornline would be a little more supportive or educational. And these folks didn't even know me. I think the abusive drill sergeant method of instruction worked for the "straight off-the-street" demographic, or the "scared straight" psychographic of some rough and tumble corps in the early 70's. But you would think by the time the late 70's rolled around, new methods of instruction would have taken hold. It was a pretty awful experience.

It was especially humorous to watch these Rocky-like horn instructors with their limited range of expression and narrow vocabularies try to teach the lyrical, mellifluous passages. Hahaha. Like the proverbial bull in a china shop. Really, what it boiled down to was that these instructors were trying to hold down a job like anyone else, were likely way over their heads, and fell into the common trap of sniping and humiliating teenage students into submission because they didn't have the ability to excite them with their minds or to use substantive teaching methods. Apparently he was more of an amateur than I.

Two years later, I became a solo euphonium player my high school wind ensemble where we won a regional championship. Meanwhile the corps struggled to maintain its top twelve caliber. Later, the corps adopted a more professional, collegiate approach and has since regained its stature.

Today's college musicians won't tolerate bullying. And an instructor who resorts to abusive remarks is trying to exert influence when he really has none.

Excellent post.

And there is a big difference between an instructor slipping once a year with a remark and those instructors that use their abuse as a method of teaching.

[Kekkles]

I was going to say - you need to read a little deeper before you jump in like that. I see now that he explained himself (I knew exactly where this was going...) but if you had given things a chance instead of jumping in and assuming the worst, you may not have looked like a...well, you know.

yeah well, old habits...

and now that he's told those stories about teaching his student's children and all that, it's getting to the point that this feels like a scene out of a comedy movie. you know, like in starsky and hutch, when they shot the little girl's pony on her birthday but they thought it was cocaine that was behind the door... i mean, how much clearer can we make it that i sent my crap down the wrong pipe?

Edited July 6, 2008 by Kekkles

[The Other Mike]

i mean, how much clearer can we make it that i sent my crap down the wrong pipe?

Oh I need to remember that one to insult the trumpet players with.

and I need a new one for the drummers. Telling them that they are a "beat off" seems to be getting old, no one laughs anymore.

[SaraNYC]

That sounds a lot like George Zingali.

Now George, George would just put the absolute fear of god in ya. Trust me, when George Zingali screamed at you to never miss that dot again, you didn't miss it.

Dave Tippett - I didn't know you played in one of his lines Matt - I've got some great stories about him too - he worked with Star in '85 also. He was always pretty laid back with us - he had much more of a quiet intensity - you didn't want to mess up, but it wasn't because he would yell at you - it was more of a glare and point.

[gbell211]

Well, that's an interesting take on it. Do you respond to being yelled at? What's the threshold of whatever it is you did or didn't do that would justify it?

I'm all about being personally accountable; this type of an activity demands that kind of accountability. I just wonder how many kids respond to that kind of thing, or whether instructors risk a kid shutting down rather than taking the instruction beneath the bluster.

I'd argue, btw, that there is not MUCH of a difference between yelling and verbal abuse. You yell at me to keep me from harm or from harming someone else, that's justified because you need to get my attention. You yell at me because I didn't do what you expected me to do, I'm probably going to focus on your behavior rather than your expectation. Which is the mature way to communicate?

You bring up a very valid point! IMHO, yelling and screaming at the top of your throat at people is not leadership. I think it's immature and people aren't really going to take you seriously. And yeah, they're going to focus on your behavior. You might get laughed at or knocked out, but the latter doesn't solve anything. When you lead a group of people, you lead them towards a common goal or purpose. You should be mature, knowledgeable, willing to listen, and having a commanding presence. There are times when people in leadership should show constructive criticism, not destructive criticism because words have power.

Edited July 7, 2008 by gbell211

[Piper]

When I marched, the instructional staff had a "good cop"-"bad cop" approach. The "bad cop" would scream and be in your face every time you screwed up, then the "good cop" would pat you on the back and let you know that everything was going to be OK. With the benefit of hindsight, I'd have to say that it worked.

[dckid80]

A very fun thread to be reading.

There is a saying that goes, "To lead without anger is to teach."

That said, if you were a parent and had a choice between Captain's Kirk or Picard to instruct your child, what would you choose?

Two very different styles that may get you to the same place.

One may be more of a rollercoaster, while the other more measured.

What might your child respond to and learn from best? May be the operative question here.

My business training is in Organizational Development and might look at the question the OP posed in this way.

1. In a complex, interdependent, rapidly-changing environment tight controls will stifle creativity, demotivate employees and kill competitiveness. In this arena employees creativity is what will keep your firm on top.

2. In an environment where the task, time frame and outcome are narrowly defined, tight controls may be best in driving results.

Is drum corps one or the other or some combination of the two?

Does the need for tight control justify a harsher stance in a teaching environment?

Or does the relative maturity of the corps members at times dictate the teaching methods utilized.

We had 13-14 year olds marching in our corps back in the day and while most responded to verbal discipline in the expected manner, there were instances where kids that young got emotional and peers, corps parents and instructors had to step in and smooth over emotions.

For myself, after having managed people for over 20 years at this point, I have consistently found that an understanding and supportive voice is both my comfort zone and one that my employees respond to best. That may be because my staff see me being authentic to myself rather than trying to come off as something or someone that I am not.

Isn't that the real challenge for instructors? Finding an authentic and constructive way in which to reach your students?

One last example to consider...

Bull Durham shower scene:

Crash to manager " They're kids scare 'em."

Then the famous lolly-gaggers speech.

Manager used the method he felt he needed to given the current state. It was well informed by years of experience but he knew he could really only play that card effectively once in a season.

Edited July 6, 2008 by dckid80

[MnM]

From my experience, the staffs that I have been on, worked under, or taught me really varied in styles depending on the maturity and the dynamics of the group. It looks from this thread that everyone had similar experiences. What I would like to add is that staffs tend to be learning all season as well as the members. More experienced staffs tend to have a more even technique when working with members.

[CoatsContraDad]

Hey, I just wanted to thank everyone who's contributed to this conversation over the last couple of days--it's been interesting to get the input of so many who've marched or otherwise been involved in this activity.

I'd be interested in hearing a bit more from corps parents, if any happen to read the pages and decide to contribute. Thanks again, all!