Intimidation vs. Leadership

[Peel Paint]

CoatsContraDad, check out this thread:

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/inde...howtopic=104847

and Spike Van Wert's book, Not For The Faint Of Heart, discussed in that thread, possibly available at the SCV or Blue Knights' souvie wagons, or online for sure, for a discussion in depth of your topic. Some of the examples of tough-love "intimidating" corps instructor behavior given in this thread are laughably mild in comparison to what used to go on in SCV years ago. But that was then, and this is now, and Spike, in teaching today, doesn't use the intimidation methods that were used in his day with SCV. He learned from it, but chose to go in a different direction himself.

I personally think at times you have to be tough, but being intimidating all the time is not as effective as a more balanced approach. In fact, what I was taught as an educator is that learning is best for most students when there are several positive interactions for every negative one, not the other way around. But I don't have a "cite" for that-- could be folk wisdom that doesn't bear out in reality. But I try to use that guideline with kids and it works for me. When I find myself leaning in the other direction, even with a total screw-up kid, I try to change my behavior to have a better chance to shape his. With some kids, if you yell at them all the time, even when they improve a bit but not as much as you'd like, you lose them. They no longer respect you and tune you out. That's a big part of the basis for the more-positive-than-negative guideline.

[27Socal]

My corps was a mix of both. We would be pushed pretty hard, especially by the visual staff, in an almost boot camp sort of way I guess you could put it. Part of that was also to harden us and keep with the "tough" image the corps was to portray in uniform, it works and still has to this day. I guess it's also important to note that we didn't have long water breaks (gush and go), but I'm pretty sure everyone is like that except a couple of your top corps. But as far as rehearsal goes, we were never put through near the stuff the Cadets people do. The Cadets really know what hard work and a good ### kicking is. From what I know, Phantom and others have very tough staff members and approach to rehearsal to.

I was at Phantom's practice the other day and heard the head visual guy say that if some of the guard made the same mistake in the show that night they would do about 50 laps at the next practice. I don't have a problem with this. Drum Corps prepares kids for real life, not for the girl scouts. When I marched it was much tougher. We got screamed at regularly. I remember getting kicked in the a** literally, because I was about a foot behind a line. I never did it again. The work world was easy after that. I heard the Troopers in the 60's used make their kids practice in leg irons to get the size of step the same. A kid fell down, broke his nose. They made him finish the practice bloody before they looked at it. I don't know if this was all true, but guess who won marching every year. Corps members have it easy today. Yes, I know, and I used to have to walk to school 10 miles in 5 feet of snow too.

[7567BC]

I was at Phantom's practice the other day and heard the head visual guy say that if some of the guard made the same mistake in the show that night they would do about 50 laps at the next practice. I don't have a problem with this. Drum Corps prepares kids for real life, not for the girl scouts. When I marched it was much tougher. We got screamed at regularly. I remember getting kicked in the a** literally, because I was about a foot behind a line. I never did it again. The work world was easy after that. I heard the Troopers in the 60's used make their kids practice in leg irons to get the size of step the same. A kid fell down, broke his nose. They made him finish the practice bloody before they looked at it. I don't know if this was all true, but guess who won marching every year. Corps members have it easy today. Yes, I know, and I used to have to walk to school 10 miles in 5 feet of snow too.

[justgin]

I've thought a lot about this thread over the last few days. I marched over 20 years ago, in a young corps that knew we had no chance of being a finalist, and in a corps that knew we would make finals, it was just a matter of what place. I've taught at all levels of the activity, and am now a parent of a marching member. It's been really interesting through the years to watch and be a part of different staffs who approach their instructional style from various directions. I think, like many others, that it is all about BALANCE. Learning when to push and when to back off........when to tell them to suck it up and when to let them back off the intensity a little......when the value of the skills being worked on in rehearsal weigh more than the chance that pushing that one kid one time too many will push them over a point where they give up.

I had the WONDERFUL good fortune of marching for Sal, Scott and Tam in Spirit, and they were MASTERS of the "good cop/bad cop" scenario. If someone was being intense with us, someone else was cracking jokes, strolling in the background wearing a silly wig, or singing silly songs in earshot that we could all laugh at. Of course, we had our days when we thought they all hated us.......what drum corps marching member hasn't?? But it was momentary and we always saw in the end that they pushed us because they believed in who we were and what we could do. The important part was that we always knew that they believed in us....and we would do anything for them because of it. I tell the kids I teach now that if/when they ever meet Scott, they should be sure to thank him for all the silly stuff we do on our "extended water breaks".....it's what bonds them as a group and one of the things that I know they'll remember forever no matter what place they end up in at the end of each season. Even though we had that fun time together, he certainly knew how to get us to the end result we all wanted.

I don't think I've ever seen or known of any staff who taught from a perspective of, "what can we do to make the kids miserable?". Everyone does what works for them, and I think that's why kids choose to go to different corps.....most of us have a pretty good understanding of which corps are more "intense" with their instructional techniques and which are more "laid back". The tough part is when the style of the instructor and the style of the member don't mesh well......the instructor is frustrated with the member and the member is frustrated with the instructor and everyone ends up miserable. If you have a kid who grew up in a program where things were driven by a task list and less "vocal" than others but they end up in a corps where yelling (even if constructively!) is the norm, they're probably in for a long summer. On the other hand, I know of one member who thrived in a VERY structured, very intense corps, and quit a more laid back corps halfway through the season because it just wasn't what worked for him. Both corps were top 6......just a different approach on how to get there.

So anyway.......all that is to say.......it's all about balance. Trust goes both ways and if either side forgets that, things can go downhill quick. More than anything else, the staff has to always make sure they believe in the kids as much as they expect the kids to believe in them.

Just my $.02 worth.

[CoatsContraDad]

I've thought a lot about this thread over the last few days. I marched over 20 years ago, in a young corps that knew we had no chance of being a finalist, and in a corps that knew we would make finals, it was just a matter of what place. I've taught at all levels of the activity, and am now a parent of a marching member. It's been really interesting through the years to watch and be a part of different staffs who approach their instructional style from various directions. I think, like many others, that it is all about BALANCE. Learning when to push and when to back off........when to tell them to suck it up and when to let them back off the intensity a little......when the value of the skills being worked on in rehearsal weigh more than the chance that pushing that one kid one time too many will push them over a point where they give up.

I had the WONDERFUL good fortune of marching for Sal, Scott and Tam in Spirit, and they were MASTERS of the "good cop/bad cop" scenario. If someone was being intense with us, someone else was cracking jokes, strolling in the background wearing a silly wig, or singing silly songs in earshot that we could all laugh at. Of course, we had our days when we thought they all hated us.......what drum corps marching member hasn't?? But it was momentary and we always saw in the end that they pushed us because they believed in who we were and what we could do. The important part was that we always knew that they believed in us....and we would do anything for them because of it. I tell the kids I teach now that if/when they ever meet Scott, they should be sure to thank him for all the silly stuff we do on our "extended water breaks".....it's what bonds them as a group and one of the things that I know they'll remember forever no matter what place they end up in at the end of each season. Even though we had that fun time together, he certainly knew how to get us to the end result we all wanted.

I don't think I've ever seen or known of any staff who taught from a perspective of, "what can we do to make the kids miserable?". Everyone does what works for them, and I think that's why kids choose to go to different corps.....most of us have a pretty good understanding of which corps are more "intense" with their instructional techniques and which are more "laid back". The tough part is when the style of the instructor and the style of the member don't mesh well......the instructor is frustrated with the member and the member is frustrated with the instructor and everyone ends up miserable. If you have a kid who grew up in a program where things were driven by a task list and less "vocal" than others but they end up in a corps where yelling (even if constructively!) is the norm, they're probably in for a long summer. On the other hand, I know of one member who thrived in a VERY structured, very intense corps, and quit a more laid back corps halfway through the season because it just wasn't what worked for him. Both corps were top 6......just a different approach on how to get there.

So anyway.......all that is to say.......it's all about balance. Trust goes both ways and if either side forgets that, things can go downhill quick. More than anything else, the staff has to always make sure they believe in the kids as much as they expect the kids to believe in them.

Just my $.02 worth.

Ginger, that's a really valuable perspective, coming from someone who actually marched AND is now a parent. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Since age ranges vary greatly within a given corps, do you feel that has any influence (or should) on instructional methods? I'd imagine college age folks would want to be treated like young adults: having expectations explained to them and allowing them to take responsibility for their performance. The younger members would probably bear a little more scrutiny/instruction, and that opens up a whole other sense of how they should be treated. Do you have any thoughts?

[TerriTroop]

I've thought a lot about this thread over the last few days. I marched over 20 years ago, in a young corps that knew we had no chance of being a finalist, and in a corps that knew we would make finals, it was just a matter of what place.

Just wanted to say Hi to you Ginger, and this post sounds just like you. You haven't changed in 20+ years.

(now I need to go read more of the thread before I consider a reply. I don't want to repeat what others have already said... too much. )

[The Other Mike]

Since age ranges vary greatly within a given corps, do you feel that has any influence (or should) on instructional methods? I'd imagine college age folks would want to be treated like young adults: having expectations explained to them and allowing them to take responsibility for their performance. The younger members would probably bear a little more scrutiny/instruction, and that opens up a whole other sense of how they should be treated. Do you have any thoughts?

Having an age out ( or senior in band) be a "buddy" for each rookie seems to work best. The age outs like the responsibility and it helps the rookies from any "rath". Working this way means you have a buffer zone to get to know a kid ( rookie ) so that you can have the time to see what works best for them as well as feedback from a vet that you know. It also gives them a feeling of becoming part of the family with a big brother / sister to not only teach them the etiquette of the group, but to help them in private, one on one instruction. No age out or senior wants to hear " and just who is responsible for this person?" in an after practice vets / officers meeting.

Most groups I know use a system like this to help everyone feel they are an important part of the forumla. Those that don't, usually get an "us vs. them" relationship between staff and members.

[MikeD]

Having an age out ( or senior in band) be a "buddy" for each rookie seems to work best. The age outs like the responsibility and it helps the rookies from any "rath". Working this way means you have a buffer zone to get to know a kid ( rookie ) so that you can have the time to see what works best for them as well as feedback from a vet that you know. It also gives them a feeling of becoming part of the family with a big brother / sister to not only teach them the etiquette of the group, but to help them in private, one on one instruction. No age out or senior wants to hear " and just who is responsible for this person?" in an after practice vets / officers meeting.

Most groups I know use a system like this to help everyone feel they are an important part of the forumla. Those that don't, usually get an "us vs. them" relationship between staff and members.

Agree. Our band has just that setup...each newbie gets a senior as a big brother/sister. My daughter's big sister from freshman year (2000) is still one of very best friends...in fact, she spent 16 days in Ghana last year visiting her,as she was in the Peace Corps at the time.

The girl that was my daughter's little sister in 2003 still calls her and they hang together whenever possible.

[silvertrombone]

I was in two corps with super talented rookies, marginally talented (and barely experienced) vets, and we were better than the staff both years. So a pretty good deal of negative teaching techniques...all of the stuff they laugh at in MuEd programs!

After I finished BME studies I played in Metropolitan Winds, a very good amateur wind ensemble in the Dallas area. Our music director/conductor was a sarcastic guy but the consumate professional. Great influence on me.

I'm totally down on the idea of junior high 2nd band teaching techniques applied to world class drum and bugle corps. Thing is, these are the best of the best. Maybe you can find better talent in the conservatories, but those prima donas wouldn't last two days on DCI tour. IMHO, you treat the members like professionals, up the standard, and they'll perform. Maybe I'm naive, but I've seen enough of the crap techniques with kids and the professional stuff with adults that I'm kind of biased in my opinions. I mean, for Christ's sake, we talk about people coming back from tour changed people--treat them as such on tour, OK?

[RickCogley]

Our staff pushed us, but I think we pushed ourselves more in the end. There was very little intimidation tactics used - maybe only a couple times - but sometimes the staff would (half) jokingly say they would have to bring back "Boston Crusaders Tennis Ball Practice" which we understood to mean getting pummelled with a tennis ball for ticking. They never did it, anyway. I do remember a certain drill instructor making his point by poking people in the chest to move them into form. That was pretty intimidating, but I think that was the extent.

I remember hearing Regiment's DL had it pretty hard, with lug wrenches being thrown, so I was just glad to have marched in lines where that sort of thing was not the norm. I heard a lot recording from a few years back, where the instructors were just really verbally abusing them for ticking, and funny thing, they kept getting worse and worse on the recording, too.

I went to see two rehearsals in pre season 2004 - BD and SCV. BD was laid back in the way their staff talked to them as professionals - I was envious - and the members were just playing so well, too, and were totally focused when they were supposed to be "on". They were told they could make a mistake but to not make it again. SCV was laid back on the DL side and were playing well, but really intense or macho on the brass and M&M side. Brass staff was somewhat sarcastic with the members, and I thought even a little harsh at times. I even saw one kid get cut - that was emotional. Watching SCV was an eye-opener for me, because while I knew SCV was intense on the field, I did not have first-hand experience / observation on how they cultivated it.

In the end, with the level of marcher / player in the top, say, 4 or 5 corps being pretty consistent, I think BD's success itself speaks volumes about what I saw as their self-policing, more-laid-back teaching technique.

Cheers,

Rick

Edited July 7, 2008 by RickCogley