Dissension in today's ranks.

[Big Bad Bari]

Good points.

I know that you seldom hear difficult passages or even fast playing loud anymore. If it's all-out loud, these days, it's usually a chord hit into the stands or whole tones that crescendo into a hit. Impressive, but not as interesting as say, Blue Rock bombarding the stands with the opening of "American Salute" at fff and then backing it down to p going back field before unleashing another salvo at our ears.

Many examples from the past. Not as many today, I think.

As for "viseral emotional impact", I think that's an intangible that comes with experience. You do feel it. I haven't heard every corps from many current years other than on TV. Maybe it exists in person. I think I know what you mean though.

It's a sublety you feel because it's how the group presents its music. Many used to think Skyliners were just loud and only blew the ends off the horns. Those people weren't experienced to hear and feel HOW they played loud and what came at you along with the end of the bells and various other horn parts. Yes, it was very loud, but if you can get into it...it was beautiful, complex, as well as powerful.

I do get that feeling with a DCI corps, if I happen to recognize what it is they're playing because then I also have a frame of reference for what their doing.

Also today,I think it's a generation gap with some music or arranging. When you hear a song you know or even don't know, you have expectations on how it should sound, either from hearing it before or from an innate sense in how you perceive music's progression. If those expectations aren't met, maybe you're disappointed.

Marty,

I think we see things pretty much eye to eye... You may embrace the newer direction of drum corps more so than I do but I NEVER want to "punish" or "disrespect" the kids! It is not like we got to choose our show back when we marched. Heck I marched DCA the past 2 years in a row and was not consulted one time regarding show design other than a few postings on the Renegade forum... (But I did play a "G" horn and I brought it... as did we all)

[KeithHall]

Bottom line I think drum corps still holds it's roots in tradition. People who marched in the 70's think it was the be all end all of Drum corps, and I'm sure fans from the 40's thought the exact same thing older fans do now. "It's not real drum corps, they have timpani on the field, and tuned bass drums, back in my day we had animal skin drum heads and rope tensioners"

Not true! I agree there is still a tradition BUT there is change taking place that may be leaning toward getting away from what drum corps was not to long ago.

Now people gripe about amps, and show style. People thought the world was going to end when cavies played the Carnival show, and it didn't then, and it won't now. Drum corps changes, fans don't and it's a shame people are so close minded as to either boo a corps, or refuse to enjoy it because it's not the "good old days". Which by the way were only good because you were young.

I think what you miss is, drum corps was all over the map of the US and Canada and today it is a handful of corps that have lasted because ADULTS decided to change it. It wasn't and isn't about the kids anymore, it's about money. The sad thing is the adults use the kids for their egos and their pockets.

Kids still love to participate in drum corps, you don't like what they play. Well go ahead and cry about it, but it's not going to change, in fact it's going to continue to get further away from what you think drum corps should be. So I'd go ahead and copy your old DCI finals tapes to DVD, if you can handle using technology. New fans will replace you if they haven't already, and the world will continue to turn.

I believe change happens BUT it has to happen for a reason. Drum and bugle corps was different in the 40's than in the 70's, I agree! But some of the changes that the adults are making really stray from what drum and bugle corps was suppose to be. I have no complaints about 95% of the changes that have taken place and I would never BOO a group but, again, the adults are selling this product to kids and parents, using all the right words to entice great HS and college musicians BUT it still costs the kids (parents) one to two thousand dollars a year to travel on buses, sleep on gym floors. How much money does a corps receive from sponsors?

Have you noticed that those that cast insults around here hide behind anonymity and don't state their drum corps credentials? IMO it makes discussions like this more interesting. People can paint others with a broad brush, call everyone too old, inept and stupid as well as assume that everyone is incapable of being open minded and objective and not being capable of determining what we like and don't like.

My name is here for all to see and I will be in Buffalo too in case you want to discuss. Hide? Not me!

IMO people like pvt_cairns, who appears to be looking to add controversy , doesn't understand that most of us won't continue a serious discussion after being insulted unless we know who we're being insulted by and that perhaps knowing that person's credentials may open us up to either enlightenment (from one who "knows" more about ourselves than we do) or open us up to a real debate.

So let me put in my too old, stupid, closed minded and inept opinion here because I'm too old, stupid and closed minded to keep my mouth shut and remain anonymous. I'll say that after watching every minute of last year's quarter and semi finals I still don't like what I see and though I like some of what I hear, I'm still really not interested in watching today's drum corps. Since I'm stupid, closed minded and inept I'll watch another drum corps show in a year or two and see if I feel different but in the mean time I'll relate to drum corps in an historical context using technologies that I'm too old, stupid and inept at using and express another too old, stupid, closed minded and inept opinion that IMO in the future everyone will be relating to drum corps in an historical context because if things keep going as they have, that's all anybody will have. (Some could argue we're already there.)

I'll crawl back into my too old, stupid, closed minded and inept life now feeling good knowing that there are already enough drum corps fans today so I can keep my money away from today's and tomorrow's drum corps and just go play my G bugles (4) and my too closed minded to own B flat trumpets (2).

[apoch003]

Now that some people are (more eloquently) agreeing with my original point, I'll elaborate the simile.

A few minor changes, over time, are unnoticeable. People can accept them better than changing the whole genre in one season.

However, step back and look at the differences between then and now, and the picture is drastically different.

There are now only 21 World Class corps left. If you have enough people in your corps to march "world class", and you march onto the field and suck, you're still in the top 25.

The other side of that, is that DCI won't reward anyone that isn't in the top 12 anyway...anymore.

This is part of the HUGE problem of funding to drum corps. I would have settled for just bragging rights and not all the money to the best corps back in the day if it meant we would still have lots of corps to watch in the future. In fact, I still would. But DCI has a rule of "win or die", and everyone has to pay for that.

I understand that fundraising (lack of Bingo Halls) etc... are important as well, but so is that $50,000 first prize money. The whole system is geared to make the kids pay to be able to perform. The kids pay for the food, fuel, instruction, gymnasiums, all of it. DCI collects the ticket money the kids then earn by working so hard and performing. It's a pretty evil system if you really think about it.

Speaking of "world class"... I DO wish DCI would QUIT CHANGING WHAT THE CLASSES ARE CALLED! I mean... Open, A class, B class,... to Division I, II, III...to A class, open class, and world class... all within my drum corps lifetime. It's ridiculous.

[Jocko the Wonder Llama]

To piggy-back on Apoch003's comment about the funding of drum corps, I must add this:

Why is so necessary for corps to get new drums and uniforms every year or two?

Is there not a better use of the limited funding that corps have available than to try to re-invent themselves each year?

I understand that sponsorships from the associated companies defer some of the cost, but does anyone expect that these companies

are giving materials away out of the goodness of their hearts? (Therre is no such thing as a free lunch/drum/uniform/horn etc.)

The constant drive to get the sharpest uniforms, of the coolest drum finishes, or the newest horns has driven the activity away from it's

community-based origins, and straight into the realm of corporate competion.

How long is it before we see the "Intel Vanguard", or the "FedEx Cadets"? (Obviously this is an extreme stretch...for the moment. But the point remains)

Before some of you decide that I'd just an "Olde Pharte" who wants a return to the days of single valve bugles and calf skin drum heads, let me say this:

I love the musicianship, talent, and dedication put forth by the performers, I just question the business practices used by corps management and DCI.

All that I'm asking for is a return to some sort of fiscal sanity. Pay your bills, save money for a time when you income won't be as good as it has been.

Maybe if we all try a little restraint, we can get the growth curve headed in the right direction.

RANT OFF

Edited July 13, 2008 by Jocko the Wonder Llama

[drumno5]

Well, I'd be perfectly happy just to hear some Bb/F hornlines disprove it, in-my-face. But alas, for the ninth straight year, no such luck.

You gotta take off those rose colored earmuffs, friend. I've heard a fair number of corps, going back to the g/d single valve & slip-slide days. I'm not beating the drum (so to speak) for the modern era, and I mean no disrespect to any of the great (loud) hornlines of the past. But I've got to give credit where it's due. '07 Cadets (they of the much discussed narration) and Crown could stand toe to toe with anyone I've ever heard, volume wise. Those kids could bring it!

peace,

Fred O.

[pvt_cairns]

Bottom line I think drum corps still holds it's roots in tradition. People who marched in the 70's think it was the be all end all of Drum corps, and I'm sure fans from the 40's thought the exact same thing older fans do now. "It's not real drum corps, they have timpani on the field, and tuned bass drums, back in my day we had animal skin drum heads and rope tensioners" Now people gripe about amps, and show style. People thought the world was going to end when cavies played the Carnival show, and it didn't then, and it won't now. Drum corps changes, fans don't and it's a shame people are so close minded as to either boo a corps, or refuse to enjoy it because it's not the "good old days". Which by the way were only good because you were young. Kids still love to participate in drum corps, you don't like what they play. Well go ahead and cry about it, but it's not going to change, in fact it's going to continue to get further away from what you think drum corps should be. So I'd go ahead and copy your old DCI finals tapes to DVD, if you can handle using technology. New fans will replace you if they haven't already, and the world will continue to turn.

Have you noticed that those that cast insults around here hide behind anonymity and don't state their drum corps credentials? IMO it makes discussions like this more interesting. People can paint others with a broad brush, call everyone too old, inept and stupid as well as assume that everyone is incapable of being open minded and objective and not being capable of determining what we like and don't like.

IMO people like pvt_cairns, who appears to be looking to add controversy , doesn't understand that most of us won't continue a serious discussion after being insulted unless we know who we're being insulted by and that perhaps knowing that person's credentials may open us up to either enlightenment (from one who "knows" more about ourselves than we do) or open us up to a real debate.

So let me put in my too old, stupid, closed minded and inept opinion here because I'm too old, stupid and closed minded to keep my mouth shut and remain anonymous. I'll say that after watching every minute of last year's quarter and semi finals I still don't like what I see and though I like some of what I hear, I'm still really not interested in watching today's drum corps. Since I'm stupid, closed minded and inept I'll watch another drum corps show in a year or two and see if I feel different but in the mean time I'll relate to drum corps in an historical context using technologies that I'm too old, stupid and inept at using and express another too old, stupid, closed minded and inept opinion that IMO in the future everyone will be relating to drum corps in an historical context because if things keep going as they have, that's all anybody will have. (Some could argue we're already there.)

I'll crawl back into my too old, stupid, closed minded and inept life now feeling good knowing that there are already enough drum corps fans today so I can keep my money away from today's and tomorrow's drum corps and just go play my G bugles (4) and my too closed minded to own B flat trumpets (2).

For one I never called anyone old or stupid, and my comment as far as technology goes was meant in jest, and was never meant to offent or insult anyone. So if I have I apologize. If I really wanted to offend someone I would have actually used the words, old, inept, and stupid. Again if I annoyed someone I sincerly apologize as that wasn't my intent.

As for being close minded, I was refering to people that don't like todays corps, that attend shows, and boo, make poor comments, and generaly nay say what a current corps is trying to accomplish. What makes anyones version of drum corps better than anyone elses? What gives anyone the right old, or new to say that stinks because it's not my era of drum corps? What makes your version so much more valid then anyone elses? And why do people keep expressing their thinly vailed hatred of the current incarnation of drum corps when it's been proven time and time again that the activity dosen't change because fans want it to? I'm really asking, what are we trying to accomplish?

As for me not listing my "credentials" I choose to leave my corps names out of my opinions as they have nothing to do with my opinion, if I offend some one (case and point this tread) I don't need my current or past corps looked at with question because I have a disagreable opinion on one topic or another. Suffice to say I have marced junior and senior corps, been a staff member, and written music for drum corps. I simply choose not to drag their names into my opinions, popular or otherwise. I'm no more "hiding" my affiliation then I am my opinion on drum corps today. I'm pretty sure my corps are on my profile, and if not I would be more then happy to answer any questions about my history through PM. In my little mind my corps history holds little bearing on my opinion.

[VOReason]

If Paul Kuehn really thinks drum corps is close to Broadway musical theatre at this point in time, he needs to either put down the bong or get to the theatre more.

Kind of reminds me of those folks who take a Honda Civic, make some engine mods, install ground effects and a loud muffler and think that they have a sports car. Drum corps (read Marching Band) is NOT Broadway theatre in spite of what some self important musical/creative genius wannabes disguised as Marching Band/Drum Corps directors and design staff would have you believe.

[drumno5]

Speaking of "world class"... I DO wish DCI would QUIT CHANGING WHAT THE CLASSES ARE CALLED! I mean... Open, A class, B class,... to Division I, II, III...to A class, open class, and world class... all within my drum corps lifetime. It's ridiculous.

Amen to that!

Fred O.

[Martybucs]

Kind of reminds me of those folks who take a Honda Civic, make some engine mods, install ground effects and a loud muffler and think that they have a sports car. Drum corps (read Marching Band) is NOT Broadway theatre in spite of what some self important musical/creative genius wannabes disguised as Marching Band/Drum Corps directors and design staff would have you believe.

Heck, Broadway ain't what it used to be either. Average musical used to use many more musicians, live, than they do now. Now it's all pre-recorded and mixed with synthesizers and there's only a handful of live musicians in the pit.

[Martybucs]

For one I never called anyone old or stupid, and my comment as far as technology goes was meant in jest, and was never meant to offent or insult anyone. So if I have I apologize. If I really wanted to offend someone I would have actually used the words, old, inept, and stupid. Again if I annoyed someone I sincerly apologize as that wasn't my intent.

As for being close minded, I was refering to people that don't like todays corps, that attend shows, and boo, make poor comments, and generaly nay say what a current corps is trying to accomplish. What makes anyones version of drum corps better than anyone elses? What gives anyone the right old, or new to say that stinks because it's not my era of drum corps? What makes your version so much more valid then anyone elses? And why do people keep expressing their thinly vailed hatred of the current incarnation of drum corps when it's been proven time and time again that the activity dosen't change because fans want it to? I'm really asking, what are we trying to accomplish?

As for me not listing my "credentials" I choose to leave my corps names out of my opinions as they have nothing to do with my opinion, if I offend some one (case and point this tread) I don't need my current or past corps looked at with question because I have a disagreable opinion on one topic or another. Suffice to say I have marced junior and senior corps, been a staff member, and written music for drum corps. I simply choose not to drag their names into my opinions, popular or otherwise. I'm no more "hiding" my affiliation then I am my opinion on drum corps today. I'm pretty sure my corps are on my profile, and if not I would be more then happy to answer any questions about my history through PM. In my little mind my corps history holds little bearing on my opinion.

If I express a preference different from someone else, it doesn't automatically mean I HATE the other person's preference. I'm merely stating my preference and anyone is free to disagree and that's OK. Why does it always boil down to when someone says they really liked and preferred the corps of a certain era, because of what ever reasons they list, compared to today's corps, the person that likes and prefers the opposite always assumes there is HATE and intolerance involved toward the newer corps and/or the person that has an opposing opinion.

It's like saying, "I really like butter pecan ice cream because I like the cold creaminess and the nuts and the salty and sweet mixed together"

and someone else chimes in,

"How could you not love the new butter pecan fudge brownie cookie dough with caramel, ice cream!!!!' 'You think only the old ice cream flavors are good and you hate the newer flavors because you're too old to accept change!' 'Well, get used to it because everything changes, or just go away and sit at home with your plain butter pecan, that is, if you can figure out how to use an ice cream scoop!"

This happens all the time. People with years of experience discussing everything they've seen and heard over many years, expressing their opinions and preferences. If they don't accept and glorify everything that's going on in drum corps today, then they're labeled as haters, old farts, people incapable of or unwilling to accept change, etc., etc.,

Seldom is the case that a person that says they prefer corps of a certain era and someone that prefers the opposite says, "Yeah, that's cool, they were good corps, but I prefer this DCI corps now because I like the newer sounds and style".

Then a civil discussion follows illuminating the plus and minuses of each.

No. It always turns into people taking someone else's preference as meaning, what one person prefers is intrinsically better than what someone else prefers and the first person must then hate anything other than their preference.

That is what fuels these constant bickering fests.

However, if it wasn't for all the misunderstanding and bickering, the posts would probably be much less, but maybe we would all learn a little something.