Cadets explain the 2008 narration

[nick6063]

That's a good point, using the spoken word does not make it "narration" by default. For me the issue really isn't voice, it's the amplification of such that makes me cringe by lending itself to preachy, self-absorbed "look at us, aren't we wonderful" moments that have a tendency (by design?) to overshadow some otherwise fantastic musical and visual work and leave some with a feeling of confusion bordering on embarrassment. Not exactly something I look for when buying a ticket to a Drum Corps show, but maybe I'm just behind the times.

Well said! By the way, what is wrong with "just behind the times?" The music, the percussion, the pagentry, and the themes back in time were more entertaining! It was what generated the audience to rise and express their joy of what they witnessed on the field. Today it is rare when this spontaneous reaction occurs. Recognizable music and themes are what people yearn for in entertainment. Not some directors' or designer abstract views. We can see this stuff in the movies and on TV. IMO Drum Corps is not the medium for this. I purchase a ticket to be entertained too. The shows today do not fully achieve this goal. Too much talent is being wasted in Drum Corps today. The Cadets show this year and in the past couple of years have suppressed thier talent. I do not come to a drum corps show to hear a message. I come to be entertained!! Design shows that will make me get up from my seat to give enthusiastic standing ovations!

[MoonHill]

It's a hit? It's a drum lick? Seriously? And you have been taking me to task on my words?

It's voice. Period. You can't change that no matter how you spin it.

It is a voice, most definitely.

Not familiar with the term "metaphor", are we?

[skajerk]

First of all, I thought Phantom was not using narration. That is what the masses have said.

Second of all, this is not about The Cadets. I have not been trying to draw any comparisons between theirs and Phantom's use of voice. We all know. . .apples and oranges. Move on.

It's not about Cadets? You haven't been drawing comparisons? Alrighty then.

Well, thanks for playing. By completely ignoring my question, you've given me an answer.

However, I'll repeat it again...

1. Remove all the narration from The Cadets show WITHOUT changing any of the music. How would the show hold up?

2. Remove all the narration from Phantom's show WITHOUT changing any of the music. How would the show hold up?

I'd like an answer from someone this time. Not your typical politician's evasive action move.

[bawker]

However, I'll repeat it again...

1. Remove all the narration from The Cadets show WITHOUT changing any of the music. How would the show hold up?

2. Remove all the narration from Phantom's show WITHOUT changing any of the music. How would the show hold up?

I'd like an answer from someone this time. Not your typical politician's evasive action move.

1. Well, there would be lots of silent drill moves and whole notes to listen to. . .

2. I'd say it'd call for more murders to take the place of the narration.

[MikeD]

1. Remove all the narration from The Cadets show WITHOUT changing any of the music. How would the show hold up?

From looking at videos....it would not hold up nearly as well w/o narration...because it was designed to have the narration as an integral part of the show.

2. Remove all the narration from Phantom's show WITHOUT changing any of the music. How would the show hold up?

Probably yes, not having seen it outside of bits of video....the spoken words are more for effects, not a key portion of the show design.

Having answered...not sure what the point is. A show designed to integrate narration into the rest of the music would of course need to have that narration in order to succeed.

[The Other Mike]

The more I watch and listen to the Cadets show the more I realize it's not the narration that turns me off, it's the tone of the narration.

Most times I listen to NPR and the like, it's story telling for adults without a theatrical voice ( for a lack of a better term)

It comes across more like kids on a Mr. Wizard show very excited to tell me about gravity or something.

Sorta like the difference between Garrison with the news vs Guy Noir. Two different styles.

Would I like that type of voice in A Jefferson Poitrait ? NO, would I like it in Peter and the Wolf, MAYBE.

[BariEuph]

You have a point, but then I have to ask myself, how many of us here will actually give narration a chance, or will a show suck simply because it contains that element?

loved crown and bluecoats last year. both effectively used spoken word to ENHANCE their shows - not complete their shows.

At lunch yesterday I heard a story on NPR about surviving cancer. At no point did I think it would have been enhanced by a drum feature.

FTW. end thread. love it, lol.

The problem this year, for me, isn't the narration.

The problem this year is that beneath the narration, the material that the corps is playing and marching is boring as all hell.

I could stand "This I Believe" and "Dance Derby of the Century" because much of the actual productions were watchable and listenable.

I just can't get into the Cadets' show this year, but that's fine, because I love the Cadets most other years, and it'd be silly if I expected to like them all.

thanks for mentioning dance derby, since i was going to also.

here we have a show that used narration extensively. i didn't like it - so it's not just when the cadets use narration that i don't like it. and i'm not the only person.

if anyone has a sense of humor, click the link below for a 15 second audio synopsis of BD's dance derby show. a friend sent it to me.

http://www.bashyou.com/usr/Laconic/Blue_Devils_2005.mp3

[MoonHill]

Having answered...not sure what the point is. A show designed to integrate narration into the rest of the music would of course need to have that narration in order to succeed.

That is, of course, a very good point. How can it be a "design flaw" if it's entirely intended as an integral part of the design?

The disconnect, I'd say, is coming from what different people consider the central design purpose of a Drum Corps show is, in the first place.

Let me hit an analogy (ugh, another one of those): Movies. If you work in the creation side of movies, then it is drilled into your head by the nature of the medium that movies are visual storytelling. IOW, if you're making a movie, it's your essential duty to tell the story through images first, and dialogue later. There are movies that reverse that, but the only successful ones that do are doing so with a very adept understanding of what they're doing.

If you make a movie that requires an audience to spend several minutes reading large blocks of text describing things you felt you couldn't really show, then more likely than not, you've got a serious design problem with your movie. You might even have been far better off just writing a novel, since novels are literary storytelling.

Similarly here, I think many people consider the Cadets' whole design philosophy to be flawed because they disagree with Hopkins (and others) on just what is the core medium of Drum Corps. Is it music set to motion, motion set to movement, or just whatever happens to happen between two endzones, two sidelines, and without a football being involved? Is there a core philosophical definition of a Drum Corps show to begin with, or is it just "whatever isn't specifically outlawed by the rules" ?

We don't really have a clear and widely-agreed-upon answer to that question, so there's always going to be disagreement on whether The Cadets' current idea of show fits into the definition of "Drum Corps Show".

[skajerk]

From looking at videos....it would not hold up nearly as well w/o narration...because it was designed to have the narration as an integral part of the show.

Probably yes, not having seen it outside of bits of video....the spoken words are more for effects, not a key portion of the show design.

Having answered...not sure what the point is. A show designed to integrate narration into the rest of the music would of course need to have that narration in order to succeed.

Thanks for the answer Mike. Knew you'd give an honest answer.

Some, not all have, said that The Cadets shows could stand on their own w/o narration. Well, they can't. To me, this shows that narration has become more important to Hoppy then the music in the show itself. THAT'S the main problem I have with the way he has used narration. The Cadets have always had an outsdanding horn line but lately it just seems that all they've become is a back-up band for the narration. What gets me is, what happens when there are electronic problems? If The Cadets, for some reason, don't have power at a show it stands to reason that their score should reflect it because Hop insists on narration being the focal point. But we all know that wouldn't happen because there isn't a set rule on judging narration. And they are, well... The Cadets. Be honest, you and I both know that no judge on earth would drop them even 1 point if it happened.

IMO, the past couple years, Crown, Bluecoats and Phantom (although it's not mic'd) have gone about the right way regarding narration (although I still wish it wasn't in).

Remove the narration from Phantom's show and it wouldn't hurt them one bit.

Remove it from Bluecoats, it wouldn't hurt them much at all

Remove it from Crown's show last year, it wouldn't hurt them one bit.

Remove it from Bluecoats show last year it wouldn't hurt them all that much

However, remove the narration from The Cadets shows that have had narration and they don't have a leg to stand on.

Just my opinions, folks.

Edited July 11, 2008 by skajerk

[Wiid]

Well said! By the way, what is wrong with "just behind the times?" The music, the percussion, the pagentry, and the themes back in time were more entertaining! It was what generated the audience to rise and express their joy of what they witnessed on the field. Today it is rare when this spontaneous reaction occurs. Recognizable music and themes are what people yearn for in entertainment. Not some directors' or designer abstract views. We can see this stuff in the movies and on TV. IMO Drum Corps is not the medium for this. I purchase a ticket to be entertained too. The shows today do not fully achieve this goal. Too much talent is being wasted in Drum Corps today. The Cadets show this year and in the past couple of years have suppressed thier talent. I do not come to a drum corps show to hear a message. I come to be entertained!! Design shows that will make me get up from my seat to give enthusiastic standing ovations!

I find this post to be particularly honest and I would like to state that I respect all of the views you have presented here (before I respectfully disagree).

To say that shows from the past were more entertaining is a subjective statement. How were they any more or less entertaining than shows of this day and age? According to your post, this would be due to the inclusion of more recognizable music and themes, which again is extremely subjective. A tune that brings back great memories and is very familar to one person may be completely foreign to another. And while I love hearing renditions of songs I know and love, I also enjoy lots of abstract music (both in drum corps and my other musical tastes). Just because a show does not present "familar" material, does not mean it has failed to "entertain" members of the audience. Which brings me to another point. As I am a relative newbie to drum corps (first discovered it in 2000 as a high school sophmore), I was never aware of the corps' "obligation" to "entertain" the audience. I was simply amazed at what I was witnessing on the field! It was like marching band, but on crack! Performed at a level that I had always imagined, but never thought possible! Not until I talked to some older fans at a few shows and started reading rants on the internet did i realize that not everyone shared my awe. However, to me it never mattered if a corps played music I was familar with or if a show wasn't full of melodic music. If I liked the music and the corps performed what I believed to be a well designed show at an incredible level, nothing else was important. I still hold these views to this day.

Moving on, you state that the Cadets shows of the past couple years have supressed the talent of the corps members. I will interpret this as a complaint about narration, however, please correct me if I am wrong. In 2005 and 2006, there is simply not enough vocalization to cover up the corps. I say vocalization because I do not consider a few seconds of voice blurbs to be narration, whether it is amplified or not. In 2007 and 2008 however, the narration is a considerable part of the show. I can completely understand why folks do not like the narration. I was weary at first as well, but have since embraced it. It does not distract me, it does not "cover up" the corps in my opinion, it does not reduce the corps to playing supportive long tones in my opinion. I enjoy listening to the 2007 and 2008 shows both with and without narration -- I feel that it works equally well either way. While some music is more "background" oriented, I feel that this does not compromise the compositional quality of the music. Next, I will agree, the narration in 2007 was not literary genius... however, I firmly believe that the narration and music were staged appropriately, having a natural ebb and flow feel. This to me is grounds for innovation. The logistical integration of narration that satisfies both voice and music equally, must come first -- the well-written prose will come later.

My long winded point is that, although the "entertainment" has stopped for you, it continues for many (not all, but many). I do not think that corps members would be driven to such high levels of performance if they did not ardently believe in both the current state of the activity and the organizations they willingly choose to seek participation in. If a few spoken words and some different music ruin that for you, I feel sorry for you. To me, drum corps is music -- all music, not just something familar. To me, drum corps is motion -- not just symmetrical designs and rigid movement, but also all kinds of crazy shapes. To me, drum corps is art -- and to stifle it by trying to define what it "is" and "isn't" is never good.

I know not everyone can open up to change, as the past holds some wonderful memories and feelings, but it never hurts to try...

**edited for grammar**

Edited July 11, 2008 by Wiid