Its coming down to BD vs. Cavies

[roosevelt]

More "sarcasm"?

There are two things to "get" here. You are an ########, or you don't actually understand how to convey sarcasm.

Also, you are trying your damnedest to put yourself above me. You are doing a little (a lot) of puffing yourself.

Coming from the guy that's signature consists of what championships he has.

[The Tsar]

You may not respond to The Cavaliers' aesthetic, but you have to admit that they are really good. If you do not find their show engaging after the first viewing watch them again. You might find that the show grows on you. They are doing something you are not familiar with and that may require a little more work for you to love it. They are really clean right now, I don't think they will peak but other groups may get "improvement points."

What stuff are they doing that I would not be familiar with?

I've watched the show several times, and I must admit that the ONLY thing that engages me is the visual design. The music is played well, but...they're just isn't much to it. They had a much more complex book in 2004 for the James Bond show...this show just doesn't do anything for me. Granted, there are plenty of people out there who love it, but...I disagree with your premise that watching the show several times will make it grow on me. I am familiar with everything they are doing (except of course the original music), but am not a big fan of the show.

I do not respond to Phantom's aesthetic. I do not like the concept of brass sound. I think they're visual program is limited. But, I do appreciate the high level of performance in their show. They're a really good drum corps. I just think they do stupid things when it comes to programming. I think they are stuck between two worlds, and they're not really sure on which planet they want to live. They could go the BD/Cavalier way and create an atmosphere, which they do some of the time. Or they could go the literal storytelling route, which they do some of the time. If they want to go BD/Cavalier way they need to take out the vocals, and the killings (which don't really fit in anyway). If they want to go the more theatrical way they need to beef up that portion of the show and make it clear what they're trying to portray. I had the same complaints with them in '06.

Well, it is obvious to me that we have very different tastes, and there is no arguing taste. I agree that they've done some pretty dumb things when it comes to programming, but...I don't believe this show is one of them. If they have not created an atmosphere for you, then I don't know what to tell you. I've only seen the show on a less-than-stellar-quality web video, but the atmosphere they have tried to set up is clear to me.

And how do the killings not fit the show? Spartacus is partly about gladiatorial combat. They didn't play "Rock Paper Scissors" in the arena. In one of the novels (there are at least two) Phrygia is murdered. And in several of the adaptations (novel and film) Spartacus is killed at the end. It isn't like they are taking poetic license...these are parts of the Spartacus "mythology."

SCV has a year or two to grow before they're going to be ready to beat any of the corps already listed. They're on the right path, but what seems to be a late start really hurts them. You really can't catch up to the performance level of BD, because they get better too. Love the direction their shows are taking.

I am not entirely sure why SCV comes out unprepared (or so it seems). Their shows look very hard from a visual standpoint, and the music isn't easy either. Like they did in the early 2000s, SCV might be placing themselves out of contention with shows that are nearly impossible to clean.

Crown has design problems. I also don't think that visually they're on the same level as The Cavaliers, SCV or BD from a design standpoint.

Well, very few corps are on the same level as SCV and Cavaliers. I wouldn't lump BD on there just yet. While their drill this year is much better than I am used to seeing, they are nowhere near as consistently creative (visually) as the two other corps you mentioned. As for Crown...their drill is fine. It allows them to do what they want to be doing musically.

This is another corps that I don't like their concept of brass sound. They over play the louder sections of the show to the point where they lose the harmonies and it becomes just noise.

I haven't found this to be the case, so you'll have to point me to a specific instance so I can hear this.

In conclusion, I will be really surprised if The Cavalier or BD doesn't win. I will still be surprised if the other doesn't finish second. I won't be surprised at all if The Cadets finish 3rd. I won't be surprised if Phantom finishes third. I would be totally shocked if SCV or Crown finished 4th.

I'd be very surprised if Cavaliers won, simply because it will once again prove a point that I have stated in the past and seen others state recently:

Phantom Regiment gets knocked (often) for its lack of visual demand and praised for their music demand.

Cavaliers get praised for their visual demand....but don't get knocked for their lack of musical demand.

It seems like an unfair double standard.

However...I can totally see BD winning it all. Their show this year is quite good. They only have to worry about peaking, because they are firing on all cylinders right now.

[saxfreq1128]

I'm not really sure how much the director change at BD affected their '91 and '92 shows. If you look at '89 and '90 they finished 4th both years and there were also major staff changes in both 90 (Scott Chandler and I think Ramiro Barrera) and a new drum staff in both '91 and '92. I think those staff changes were more influential on the early 90s shows than the director change.

BD is really good this year. They might be the best BD corps since 2004, which I consider the best BD corps ever. They are certainly my favorite. Most of the effects in the show are performance effects, which is a good thing to do when you're that good.

You may not respond to The Cavaliers' aesthetic, but you have to admit that they are really good. If you do not find their show engaging after the first viewing watch them again. You might find that the show grows on you. They are doing something you are not familiar with and that may require a little more work for you to love it. They are really clean right now, I don't think they will peak but other groups may get "improvement points."

I am not anti narration. I'm anti stupid. And the Cadets' show is stupid. They're going to play and march really well at the end of the year, but I'm not sure their entire show is all that effective. Judges cannot judge what they want to be there, they can only reward what they see on the field. I would have a hard time with this because I want them to make the narration better and make it more a part of the show. As is it is right now there is drill and music with narration going on and that doesn't really relate to the music or drill.

I do not respond to Phantom's aesthetic. I do not like the concept of brass sound. I think they're visual program is limited. But, I do appreciate the high level of performance in their show. They're a really good drum corps. I just think they do stupid things when it comes to programming. I think they are stuck between two worlds, and they're not really sure on which planet they want to live. They could go the BD/Cavalier way and create an atmosphere, which they do some of the time. Or they could go the literal storytelling route, which they do some of the time. If they want to go BD/Cavalier way they need to take out the vocals, and the killings (which don't really fit in anyway). If they want to go the more theatrical way they need to beef up that portion of the show and make it clear what they're trying to portray. I had the same complaints with them in '06.

SCV has a year or two to grow before they're going to be ready to beat any of the corps already listed. They're on the right path, but what seems to be a late start really hurts them. You really can't catch up to the performance level of BD, because they get better too. Love the direction their shows are taking.

Crown has design problems. I also don't think that visually they're on the same level as The Cavaliers, SCV or BD from a design standpoint. This is another corps that I don't like their concept of brass sound. They over play the louder sections of the show to the point where they lose the harmonies and it becomes just noise. To me Crown is the 1989 Star of Indiana, good, ready to move up, but need an additional staff member or two to take them to the next level. With Star it was George Zingali, but he's not around anymore. So I don't know who they can get to help them move up.

In conclusion, I will be really surprised if The Cavalier or BD doesn't win. I will still be surprised if the other doesn't finish second. I won't be surprised at all if The Cadets finish 3rd. I won't be surprised if Phantom finishes third. I would be totally shocked if SCV or Crown finished 4th.

RE: Phantom --

The show is "Spartacus." How don't the killings fit?

Also, I don't think Phantom needs to choose between being more like the 'storytelling' Cadets or like the 'atmospheric' BD/Cavs (a pairing that I would question, in the first place.) PR should, and does, opt to be more like . . . PR. Just a separate branch of drum corps design that, like all others, has its strengths and weaknesses.

I do agree, though, that the Cadets show -- narration aside -- is potentially weak. But they'll do well because they'll perform the snot out of it; they are, as every year, one of the most talented groups of people on the field.

And, yes, people ought to give the Cavs a second chance. It's really a good show.

[vferrera]

I really like Phantom's show. I think they tell the story quite nicely. And the ballad is very beautiful. But compared to Cavaliers, PR seems stuck in the 80s, both visually and musically. Their drill looks like 80s Cadets to me. And their brass is powerful, but very raw. Not nearly as refined as Cavies. I don't think their drill or music is as demanding as Cavaliers.

Don't get me wrong - I love the show. But by current judging standards, I don't see it beating Cavies.

[Newseditor44]

I don't think it's the consensus. From what I've seen, the reactions have been rather polar.

You seem to have a pretty narrow vision of what GE is.

naught*

Cavies*

Cavs*

Devs*

Devs*

It's obvious you and everyone else knew what I meant Cavs and Devs. Your need for perfection on a message board is not my problem.

I have a great grasp on general effect... however, what I like and what you like could be two different things, and I respect that.

[The Tsar]

I really like Phantom's show. I think they tell the story quite nicely. And the ballad is very beautiful. But compared to Cavaliers, PR seems stuck in the 80s, both visually and musically. Their drill looks like 80s Cadets to me. And their brass is powerful, but very raw. Not nearly as refined as Cavies. I don't think their drill or music is as demanding as Cavaliers.

Don't get me wrong - I love the show. But by current judging standards, I don't see it beating Cavies.

You don't think their MUSIC is as DEMANDING as Cavaliers?

Wow.

Well, everyone has their opinion.

But I certainly disagree with yours on the musical front (I won't argue with you on the visual front).

[SKEK_SOP]

well, very few corps are on the same level as SCV and Cavaliers. I wouldn't lump BD on there just yet. .

Oh Really, then how did BD beat both the Cavies and SCV in GE VIS the last two years

and last year get a perfect score in Visual Comp????

[vferrera]

After seeing BD's show, I have to apologize. PR's visual design isn't that bad. At least is makes sense with the music. Man, BD looked and sounded awfully rough. PR should definitely beat them tonight.

[The Tsar]

Oh Really, then how did BD beat both the Cavies and SCV in GE VIS the last two years

and last year get a perfect score in Visual Comp????

Short answer: Because judges are wacky?

Long answer:

Because they march really really really well. I would never take that from BD.

However, from a design perspective, SCV and Cavaliers have been on a different level for years.

It's cool if you don't agree. But BD beating Cavies' in GE Visual in 2006 was almost as funny as when they beat them in GE Visual in 2000.

If you are really going to sit here and argue that the Blue Devils' visual design -from a flow, transition, and "picture" standpoint- is as good as Cavaliers, for example, well then, I'll just have to sit here and nod politely.

[Matt_S]

It's cool if you don't agree. But BD beating Cavies' in GE Visual in 2006 was almost as funny as when they beat them in GE Visual in 2000.

I haven't studied the recaps, but wow! did they really?? In either year?? I'm in the minority in that I think BD doesn't get the credit, from the fans, that they deserve for visual effects such as transitions, staging, etc. I think a lot of people get blown away by the single moment of an awesome move, and kind of miss out on the awesome cohesion being displayed throughout the program, which BD excels at. Still, the Cavaliers excels at those aspects of visual design to a far greater extent than the Blue Devils ever have, and there's no question that 2000 and 2006 are some of the Green Team's finest years.l