Andyroo Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Perhaps someone should remind Sam that most Honor Guard members are armed - rifles, sabers, pistols, etc. Don't upset them!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camel lips Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 (edited) I've learned that I've aged to the point that I'm typically the U.S. Flag Code expert at an event, including some Championships, unless Jerald Sheets is there to accompany me or most of the DCA staff.. Story I got was that you had to go underground for a while till the Marines called off the search party looking for you. And if you ever decide to do something like that again,,I will be right there by your side brother. I ain't gonna say what first came to mind. My Son Chaz who just made eagle scout a couple of months back is a real stickler for the U.S. flag code.He constantly has me stop the car at post offices or schools when they have the flag hung wrong and he goes inside and gives them the riot act about it.I suspect one of these years I am going to have to bail both you and him out of jail for causing some sort of international incident over the colors. Money well spent Edited September 9, 2008 by camel lips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Sam, your post offends the many fine folks that perform with all corps as a member of the honor guard. You owe those folks an immediate and sincere apology. Sorry, but your flippant dismissal of their efforts is rude and unnecessary. Re read it, Chris....I never said they were unecessarry or dismissed their presence...i said they didn't contribute to the COMPETITIVE PROGRAM. They aren't on the main portion of the field gettign involved with the drill (even the used of the Renegades' honor guard in 2002 was brief as I recall...limited to America the Beautiful). I was unaware they could drop the score if they do something wrong....if that is the case, then they SHOULD be counted for total performance numbers....of course, then you could have an honor guard of 34 people and one soprano soloing for 10 minutes and you'd TECHNICALLY have a Class A corps, but it wouldn't be a very good show. If ANY memeber can affect the score, they should be counted....which brings me back to the DM....who CAN do somkething to affect the score....remember Dream's timing penalty in 04? I started "Jupiter" too fast and that was ONE of teh factors that caused us to come in undertime. You also forget that I AM a military veteran....honoring the colors is fairly important to me....but this is not about properly running an honor guard...it's about who should be coungted in the performance numbers aside from the brass, drums, and color guard. Rich...one thing we were going to try to do had En Garde fielded this year was to try and see if the JROTC at our school site would be interested in performing honor guard duities.....but I would never have counted them as part of our required 30 bodies even if DCI would do so... I have said what I have said and believe the same...I do not owe anyone an apology. I have a different thought than some of you one the matter....deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPeashey Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 all the ribbing of sam aside - I took his comments as just comments that came off sounding wrong - as opposed to Chris who called a spade a spade and said it like it is... believe me... if you're a corps director, been there done that, the guy guarding the A flag better have the same space in your heart as a sop soloist... or you better find a new hobby... A corps director's secret is revealed... The guys in the A section - I don't care what corps it is - will do the following: 1. Work hard behind the scene so the brass and percussion guys can practice more... this often includes working on the truck, driving the truck, lining the field, filling the water buckets and multitude of other tasks... 2. INVARIABLY - members of the A section raise more money for the corps on average than any other section... ask around ... this is ALWAYS true... 3. They are always the type of corps member whose hearts are totally into the corps. They will be the first to volunteer, the first to celebrate victory and those who seem to take the defeats the hardest... Now, a misconception... The A section can not participate in the show or they will be counted... that is NOT exactly true. They don't count as long as they are only doing the NORMAL duties of a color party... these duties could include marching down the 50 in the middle of a show and presenting the colors... They could even replicate the flag raising at Iwo Jima... or something similar... were a corps to do this, it would be an integral part of their show but they would still not count toward body count because they are only doing what color parties do... Now, if Cabs A section took those huge orange legion flags and began spinning them... they would count... If you REALLY want to get technical, a rifle could do manuals such as a queen anne salute and still not count... they would count if they started doing tosses and the weapons left their "control"... of course the toss would also leave them subject to penalty if there was not at least one weapon within 3 steps of the A flag with that weapon firmly in their control.... the key here is "doing normal duties of a color party" Were any of these things to occur... the visual judges and effect judges would certainly be allowed to adjudicate the color party and reward or detract accordingly. The only reason the guards hide in the corner without moving... is that the designers found it too limiting to have to worry about flag violations... speaking of which - yes they are still in the books... flag violations... why? because they are the LAW OF THE LAND... not the rules of DCA... I would LOVE to see a corps do a complete color pre again including presentation of the color party... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDz Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 <snip>Now, a misconception... The A section can not participate in the show or they will be counted... that is NOT exactly true. They don't count as long as they are only doing the NORMAL duties of a color party... these duties could include marching down the 50 in the middle of a show and presenting the colors... They could even replicate the flag raising at Iwo Jima... or something similar... were a corps to do this, it would be an integral part of their show but they would still not count toward body count because they are only doing what color parties do... Now, if Cabs A section took those huge orange legion flags and began spinning them... they would count... If you REALLY want to get technical, a rifle could do manuals such as a queen anne salute and still not count... they would count if they started doing tosses and the weapons left their "control"... of course the toss would also leave them subject to penalty if there was not at least one weapon within 3 steps of the A flag with that weapon firmly in their control.... the key here is "doing normal duties of a color party" Were any of these things to occur... the visual judges and effect judges would certainly be allowed to adjudicate the color party and reward or detract accordingly. The only reason the guards hide in the corner without moving... is that the designers found it too limiting to have to worry about flag violations... speaking of which - yes they are still in the books... flag violations... why? because they are the LAW OF THE LAND... not the rules of DCA... I would LOVE to see a corps do a complete color pre again including presentation of the color party... So very well written, Tom...... this was a combination rules interpretation and editorial in one! It could not be more clear. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDz Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I commented on Tom's excellent comment about the role of the AF section in terms of counting in the number of performers. I also note his excellent response about the role of the DM. I'd like to give my own suggested answer to the topic question: DMs (and AFs) would be included in the on-field count when "Best DM" and "Best Honor Guard" are scoring captions. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonHill Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Since it seems to my eye that the intent of the member limits/minimums is to provide somewhat for a certain standard of parity between the various groups when it comes to the major elements of the activity (that is, the corps proper and the color guard... which, really, should have a different name in DCA since we've still got people actually guarding the colors...), counting the DMs or the American Flag section would be a tiny bit silly. Having an extra DM on the back sideline isn't the same thing as having another horn or drum or flag, and can only really effect the scores on the sheets indirectly: by improving the performance of the horns, drums, and flags. If we're going to go all the way out to considering such indirect effect on scores as that, then we might as well start talking about including never-on-the-field staff members in the numbers consideration. Because many of them have far more powerful and effect on the scores than a DM does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPeashey Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Kind words appreciated Joe... heh! I learned from Bud Floyd... (Utica Yankees director) the master of the flag manual... he personally made sure every young judge could recite it backwards and forwards ... As for the numbers game... we have bottom numbers intended to insure minimum standards for participation and we have top numbers where the limit was set to keep the costs in line and insure that one "rich" corps doesn't come out with 100 horns and a huge advantage... just because they could afford to travel that many people... not counting the A section in the top limit was a compromise to insure that a corps could have a large A section for all the reasons I gave in the previous post - with a big dose of old fashioned patriotism thrown in - if they so chose to without it effecting their brass/percussion/guard size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeBaritone Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I believe if you are drum major, play a horn BUT die in the show, you don't count. I think in 2002 the Renegades marched 148, but had 20 sopranos conduct the ballad and then die in the end, so we were under the 128 maximum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraRich77 Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Re read it, Chris....I never said they were unecessarry or dismissed their presence...i said they didn't contribute to the COMPETITIVE PROGRAM. They aren't on the main portion of the field gettign involved with the drill (even the used of the Renegades' honor guard in 2002 was brief as I recall...limited to America the Beautiful).I was unaware they could drop the score if they do something wrong....if that is the case, then they SHOULD be counted for total performance numbers....of course, then you could have an honor guard of 34 people and one soprano soloing for 10 minutes and you'd TECHNICALLY have a Class A corps, but it wouldn't be a very good show. If ANY memeber can affect the score, they should be counted....which brings me back to the DM....who CAN do somkething to affect the score....remember Dream's timing penalty in 04? I started "Jupiter" too fast and that was ONE of teh factors that caused us to come in undertime. You also forget that I AM a military veteran....honoring the colors is fairly important to me....but this is not about properly running an honor guard...it's about who should be coungted in the performance numbers aside from the brass, drums, and color guard. Rich...one thing we were going to try to do had En Garde fielded this year was to try and see if the JROTC at our school site would be interested in performing honor guard duities.....but I would never have counted them as part of our required 30 bodies even if DCI would do so... I have said what I have said and believe the same...I do not owe anyone an apology. I have a different thought than some of you one the matter....deal with it. Sam, no one is trying to attack you personally, which is what your attitude on this subject is reflecting. However, let me say that NOT CONTRIBUTING to the COMPETITIVE PROGRAM is an illusion, since they STILL have the power to ELIMINATE POINTS from the "competitive program", they ARE in fact as ACTIVE a part of the competitive program as any other marching member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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