Why Isn't There a Competitive DCA Corps in the Tri-State(Ohio,Indi

[bill]

Empire Statesmen sponsored a DCA show in Salem Oh, back in 2007 with MN Brass, CV, Kilties, Govenaires and your host............it was a great show.

Yes, it certainly was a great show!! And to clarify on another post, to the best of my knowledge, involvement of 3 corps can deem it a sanctioned show, not 4 corps

[Spaml6]

Empire Statesmen sponsored a DCA show in Salem Oh, back in 2007 with MN Brass, CV, Kilties, Govenaires and your host............it was a great show.

It was a great show!! Our (ES) last run through before the show was for CV, and they did one for us too!!! It was great meeting everyone as we shared dinner before the show also

Sidenote: Erie Thunderbirds did the exhibition for the show... first time I ever had to double (actually triple) duty. Empire (euph), Erie (lead sop), Empire victory concert Talk about change in embouchere (not really but slightly) in about 30 min total!

[Dale Bari]

DCA is run by the corps, but that's becausse DCA IS the corps. So when I speak of DCA as an entity, I am speaking of the organization that is the titular head of the all-age activity as determined by the corps that participate in said activity. Thus saying, if DCA as a whole said, "Hey, we want to have a show once a year in Ohio/Indiana, and we would like it if at least 3 of our most successful corps participated in that show, along with any smaller corps in that area", and gave good reasons why this should happen (expansion of the activity to large hotbeds of drum corps activity = GOOD for all in that activity), then it would be easier to have a show with actual DCA participation.

The three closest big name corps to Columbus, for instance, are ES, Cru, and Brigs. It's still a distance for them; 6.5 hours minimum. For Reading to come (the next closest of the top ten) would be 9 hours at least. Yes, it's difficult, because the distances are large and gas prices are usually higher in the summer. Youngstown/Cleveland would be better in that sense; closer to more corps, more chance of participation, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that DCA as an entity could engage a few corps to participate for the good of the activity, to raise its brand value. We often forget that businesses that are not for profit are still businesses, and as such, they own a brand, and have a responsibility to promote that brand.

But, you either misunderstand or else misrepresent what DCA actually does. DCA does not will shows into existence and it doesn't push member corps to attend particular shows. To do so would open the circuit up to charges of favoritism.

DCA acts as a broker for delivering corps to shows that wish to have DCA corps participate. Nothing more and nothing less. A show can have DCA corps or not and can, through successfully recruiting enough DCA corps, become a sanctioned DCA show - or not. Maybe individual corps can talk about going to support the show sponsor, but DCA can't afford to be seen as promoting one regular show over another.

We've talked a lot on DCP about the existence of DCA-participating corps in parts of the country outside of the old area (NE). Most of us have agreed that it is a "Build it and they will come" situation. Having the Top 3, or whatever, DCA corps swoop into a brand new corps' area will not conjure up a suddenly stable DCA corps where none was before. And, no fair way exists of requiring any corps to participate where it does not wish to go.

Like in the economy, there are leading indicators and there are lagging indicators. Employment is a lagging indicator. (By the time employment goes up, the recovery is already in full swing.) Having corps participate in another corps' show is a lagging indicator. That happens after all the other work of getting the corps on its feet has already occurred, not before.

Surely, with the right recruiting effort and business plan, someone could find 200 people (members plus staff plus support staff) to put together a successful corps in a state of 11.5 million people (18 million including IN). Heck, the combined populations of Cinncinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Toledo, Indianapolis, and Fort Wayne is 9 million themselves. (With the extreme ends of that area - Cleveland and Indy - being only 5 hours apart.)

And, just for the record, Reading, PA, is 0.75 hours closer to Columbus, OH, than Syracuse, NY, is (6:55 vs 7:39).

(edited for typo)

Edited March 31, 2009 by Dale Bari

[Baeritone]

But, you either misunderstand or else misrepresent what DCA actually does. DCA does not will shows into existence and it doesn't push member corps to attend particular shows. To do so would open the circuit up to charges of favoritism.

DCA acts as a broker for delivering corps to shows that wish to have DCA corps participate. Nothing more and nothing less. A show can have DCA corps or not and can, through successfully recruiting enough DCA corps, become a sanctioned DCA show - or not. Maybe individual corps can talk about going to support the show sponsor, but DCA can't afford to be seen as promoting one regular show over another.

We've talked a lot on DCP about the existence of DCA-participating corps in parts of the country outside of the old area (NE). Most of us have agreed that it is a "Build it and they will come" situation. Having the Top 3, or whatever, DCA corps swoop into a brand new corps' area will not conjure up a suddenly stable DCA corps where none was before. And, no fair way exists of requiring any corps to participate where it does not wish to go.

Like in the economy, there are leading indicators and there are lagging indicators. Employment is a lagging indicator. (By the time employment goes up, the recovery is already in full swing.) Having corps participate in another corps' show is a lagging indicator. That happens after all the other work of getting the corps on its feet has already occurred, not before.

Surely, with the right recruiting effort and business plan, someone could find 200 people (members plus staff plus support staff) to put together a successful corps in a state of 11.5 million people (18 million including IN). Heck, the combined populations of Cinncinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Toledo, Indianapolis, and Fort Wayne is 9 million themselves. (With the extreme ends of that area - Cleveland and Indy - being only 5 hours apart.)

And, just for the record, Reading, PA, is 1.75 hours closer to Columbus, OH, than Syracuse, NY, is (6:55 vs 7:39).

I neither misrepresent nor misunderstand what DCA DOES. I indicate what I believe that DCA ought to do.

DCA does not, in my opinion, promote itself correctly. The reason I suggested a show with "headliners" is because, while it's not an instant fix to do so, the truth is simply that a fan base will never be tapped with corps who have not already had some success - unless the younger corps that perform are obscenely well financed to afford quality instrumentation and instruction. You have to put your best product forth to present it.

And for the record, the distance to Reading is shorter, but the actual time is, according to my practical information, longer. It takes 1 hour and 15 minutes to get to the field from Harrisburg, PA (trust me, I've done it, driving the speed limit). It takes 7 hours to get to Harrisburg from Columbus (again, trust me, I've done it, many times; the map says it should take six, but that does not account for the state of the roads and the constant construction on the PA Turnpike. Perhaps the drive between Syracuse and Rochester is similarly difficult, but I have driven to Rochester from Columbus in 6.5 hours, normal speed. Add 1.5 hours (liberally; one need not drive to Rochester to drive to Columbus from Syracuse, so you could probably cut half an hour or so off of it), and that's 8 hours. You're looking at 8 hours - 8.5 hours to Reading from here; the 7 or so hours you indicate is impossible. So at best, the drive times are similar. Just offering practical experience vs. theory. Perhaps your experience has been different.

[Dale Bari]

I neither misrepresent nor misunderstand what DCA DOES. I indicate what I believe that DCA ought to do.

Well, DCA does what it is structured to do. To do otherwise requires it to be re-structured. But, then it will no longer be DCA as we know it.

You conveniently ignore the fact that for any circuit to promote member corps' attendance at particular show(s) would introduce a fundamental flaw into whatever structure it does have. Unless you mean for the circuit to be a dictatorship. Even the most socialistic and dictator-like organization out there in the entertainment business (the NFL) has an objective formula for telling the teams where they are going every season - and does not favor attendance of particular teams at particular games.

DCA can help individual corps to prosper by giving them oppotunities to be competitive. It can put them in touch with other corps of similar make-up to beg, borrow, and steal ideas for getting stronger or even just surviving. It provides as comprehensive an annual gathering for all to take measure of their progress as possible. That's all. For it to do more is to upset the apple cart. Which is not good for the activity.

[melligene]

Well, DCA does what it is structured to do. To do otherwise requires it to be re-structured. But, then it will no longer be DCA as we know it.

You conveniently ignore the fact that for any circuit to promote member corps' attendance at particular show(s) would introduce a fundamental flaw into whatever structure it does have. Unless you mean for the circuit to be a dictatorship. Even the most socialistic and dictator-like organization out there in the entertainment business (the NFL) has an objective formula for telling the teams where they are going every season - and does not favor attendance of particular teams at particular games.

DCA can help individual corps to prosper by giving them oppotunities to be competitive. It can put them in touch with other corps of similar make-up to beg, borrow, and steal ideas for getting stronger or even just surviving. It provides as comprehensive an annual gathering for all to take measure of their progress as possible. That's all. For it to do more is to upset the apple cart. Which is not good for the activity.

Thank you Dale. Wanted to Quote your first post on the subject but this one will do fine. Well said and on point. Further posts will not deter one whose mind is made up. He is entitled to his opinion, granted, but really can't grasp the "cart before the horse" axiom (is axiom correct...? )

Anyway, Dale, couldn't have said it any better than you did.

[Dale Bari]

Perhaps the drive between Syracuse and Rochester is similarly difficult, but I have driven to Rochester from Columbus in 6.5 hours, normal speed. Add 1.5 hours (liberally; one need not drive to Rochester to drive to Columbus from Syracuse, so you could probably cut half an hour or so off of it), and that's 8 hours. You're looking at 8 hours - 8.5 hours to Reading from here; the 7 or so hours you indicate is impossible. So at best, the drive times are similar. Just offering practical experience vs. theory. Perhaps your experience has been different.

So now you've shifted from a position where Reading was 9 hours and Syracuse was 6.5 to one where they are essentially the same 8 hours. OK. It doesn't really matter.

In my experience, having the Hawthorne Caballeros (or whoever) come to a show to draw fans to a new corps' show in a non-DCA area won't do diddly to improve a corps' bottom line. In 2007, the Rochester Crusaders were the marquee corps at the Woodbridge, VA, DCA show sponsored by Shenandoah Sound. The attendance at the show was sparse. (At that time, Cru had not been in DCA Top 10 since 2003.) In 2008, the Reading Buccaneers were the marquee corps at the SS-sponsored show (moved to Manassas Park, VA), and the show grew from 4 corps to 7 (also including the Hurcs) plus the Marine D&B. Attendance was slightly improved. We'll see if SS can keep the momentum up this year.

The main point is that DCA didn't dictate that those corps go to that show; the individual corps made those collective decisions. Did that translate into a better corps? Well, SS fielded in 2008 after being inactive from 06-07. Would anyone from SS care to claim that having Cru at the 07 show made the difference? I doubt it. If SS finishes higher than another corps in this 09 season, would they credit having Bucs and Hurcs at their show in 08, or would they credit their own hard work at making that happen?

It's still a "build it and they will come" scenario. Let the folks in Ohio/Indiana/Michigan who want corps to build them. Then, they can sponsor shows and attempt to recruit corps to attend. Or, you don't even need a corps. Anyone can sponsor a show. Many DCA shows are not sponsored by a DCA corps, including some of my favorite shows like Kingston, NY, and Scranton, PA.

[Baeritone]

Well, DCA does what it is structured to do. To do otherwise requires it to be re-structured. But, then it will no longer be DCA as we know it.

You conveniently ignore the fact that for any circuit to promote member corps' attendance at particular show(s) would introduce a fundamental flaw into whatever structure it does have. Unless you mean for the circuit to be a dictatorship. Even the most socialistic and dictator-like organization out there in the entertainment business (the NFL) has an objective formula for telling the teams where they are going every season - and does not favor attendance of particular teams at particular games.

DCA can help individual corps to prosper by giving them oppotunities to be competitive. It can put them in touch with other corps of similar make-up to beg, borrow, and steal ideas for getting stronger or even just surviving. It provides as comprehensive an annual gathering for all to take measure of their progress as possible. That's all. For it to do more is to upset the apple cart. Which is not good for the activity.

Does DCA as we know it work that well that it cannot withstand change? Or perhaps it's better to asak the question in the opposite direction: Would changing DCA as we know it into something else stand a decent chance to make it something better, more effective, than it is now?

I don't conveniently ignore anything; to say so is to ignore a large part of what I've said, as well as being more than a little insulting. What I've said is that DCA IS the corps; in other words, for DCA to do this, the corps would have to approve it from the first. How is that a dictatorship? Anything DCA does on this level is done with prior ratification by the members. If the member corps decide to tap the Midwest market, then those corps must also commit to doing so; it's a joint decision, and the organization aspect is carried out by the organization known as DCA at the will of those corps, which are, in the end, what DCA IS. You assume a logical fallacy.

The final thing I'll say on this subject is to address your point of "upsetting the apple cart". YOU conveniently ignore the fact that upsetting the apple cart, aka rocking the boat, aka promoting change is not merely a chance to fail, but a chance to succeed. Being afraid of change is natural, but to thrive, we must adapt. A mentality of stagnation will kill DCA far faster than taking a risk and changing with the chance to do the activity some good. That which does not evolve, dies. It's axiomatic.

Being afraid of change is what got drum corps into this mess to begin with. I love drum corps, and change for the sake of it (amplification springs to mind) is counter-productive. Change to achieve a result, with a goal in mind, however....that's how we survive. Adaptability made the human race what it is. To avoid change out of fear is to become old and afraid of everything, and eventually, it ALWAYS kills - because things always change.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Baeritone

[Mike_B]

nm

Edited April 4, 2009 by Mike_B

[melligene]

Does DCA as we know it work that well that it cannot withstand change? Or perhaps it's better to asak the question in the opposite direction: Would changing DCA as we know it into something else stand a decent chance to make it something better, more effective, than it is now?

I don't conveniently ignore anything; to say so is to ignore a large part of what I've said, as well as being more than a little insulting. What I've said is that DCA IS the corps; in other words, for DCA to do this, the corps would have to approve it from the first. How is that a dictatorship? Anything DCA does on this level is done with prior ratification by the members. If the member corps decide to tap the Midwest market, then those corps must also commit to doing so; it's a joint decision, and the organization aspect is carried out by the organization known as DCA at the will of those corps, which are, in the end, what DCA IS. You assume a logical fallacy.

The final thing I'll say on this subject is to address your point of "upsetting the apple cart". YOU conveniently ignore the fact that upsetting the apple cart, aka rocking the boat, aka promoting change is not merely a chance to fail, but a chance to succeed. Being afraid of change is natural, but to thrive, we must adapt. A mentality of stagnation will kill DCA far faster than taking a risk and changing with the chance to do the activity some good. That which does not evolve, dies. It's axiomatic.

Being afraid of change is what got drum corps into this mess to begin with. I love drum corps, and change for the sake of it (amplification springs to mind) is counter-productive. Change to achieve a result, with a goal in mind, however....that's how we survive. Adaptability made the human race what it is. To avoid change out of fear is to become old and afraid of everything, and eventually, it ALWAYS kills - because things always change.

Just a suggestion sir. (and I really don't want to get involved here) but before this discussion gets to far out of hand...I see by your signature you are a Westshore alumni. Perhaps firing off a letter to DCA's VP may get better results. You do know Larry...right? Just a thought......