End of Discussion

[JimF-LowBari]

Know I have waaaay too many DCP posts but just have to say this:

No matter how many wrinkles are in the system, IT STILL BEATS THE CRAP out of having all the corps go head to head. Been there, done that and got the tire tracks accross my back to prove it.

Heh, ain't it great having enough corps at Prelims to be able to HAVE seperate clases. Back in the early 90s I predicted Senior corps would die away in 5-10 years because only 13 corps went to Prelims. YEah I know, ya have to be old enough to remember the bad times to see the good today.

Edited May 3, 2009 by JimF-3rdBari

[OldStyleCorps]

Yes we will... (see who has the vote in Sept.)

Since it has yet to happen (a declared Class A corps making voting membership in top 10), if it doesn't happen again this year - what does that prove? That DCA was not being honest when they recognized that it could have happened? I don't see your point - STILL.

When will people get over the past misconceptions?

now back to your regularly scheduled program - discussion ended

YES Tom.

DCA has come a long way to make an area in Drum Corps for a WIDE varirty of sizes and styles. FAR more so than another Circuit has. In promoting Growth in TWO area's size wize, AND for giving the possiblility of Power to some smaller groups. (Note the "Other" Circuit has Not done that). Also DCA spreads what little (money) it has to the Smaller units, in the form of shares. (Note the Other Circuit has Not done that either). Seems EVERYONE has a seat at the table in all areas of discussion.

They TRY hard to please. Nothing is perfect. BUT, at least DCA TRIES very hard to please as many of it's Members and Fans as Possible.

THANK YOU Tom, and DCA for all you do. Keep up the Fine job you all are doing!!!!!!

Edited May 3, 2009 by OldStyleCorps

[brassomaniac]

I'll second that. It seems like DCA has gone out of their way to encourage and nuture the Class A groups. And the proof of the soundness of the plan, is in the number of corps' competing today.

Even before the days of Class A... Mickey, Gil, Red, Tom AND the member corps' at the time, were very supportive of the Associates and non-members. Corps like the Chieftains and Capitol Brass had a place and a voice at the table, regular shows, respect and enthusiastic support.

This might not be the perfect plan for everyone, but it shows the inclusiveness and forward-thinking of these people.

Edited May 3, 2009 by brassomaniac

[Andyroo]

I'll second that. It seems like DCA has gone out of their way to encourage and nuture the Class A groups. And the proof of the soundness of the plan, is in the number of corps corps' competing today.

Even before the days of Class A... Mickey, Gil, Red, Tom AND the member corps' at the time, were very supportive of the Associates and non-members. Corps like the Cheiftains and Capitol Brass had a place and a voice at the table, regular shows, respect and enthusiastic support.

This might not be the perfect plan for everyone, but it shows the inclusiveness and forward-thinking of these people.

Maniac used the magic word - inclusiveness. This, to me, is what differentiates DCA from so many of the other circuits with which we're all familiar - both today and in the past.

And the encouragement provided to Class A, alumni, mini-corps, etc. is a sterling example of that.

[Bruckner8]

I read the entire (short) thread, and my conclusion is that this a good thing. But I still have a few questions/concerns/points:

--) If the sheets are exactly the same, isn't it possible for a Class A corps to win in Open Class? If judged purely on the merits of the desing and performance (ie, the sheets), then I would think it's possible. If I'm missing something, please fill me in.

--) DCA (along with DCI) must have a disease of "bigger is better," but I applaud DCA for encouraging the smaller corps to compete in Open Class. I suppose there is wiggle room in the GE buckets (bigger might be better), but c'mon. If anything, 65 members should be AN ADVANTAGE--easier to clean!

--) This pushes all corps "in the mix" (where Open and Class A might overlap, around position 10) to be better, to strive for excellence with more motivation. That's always a good thing.

--) It encourages the possibility of someone running a Class A corps for the purpose of competing for the Open Class title...and do it cheaper, with more individualism. If you're trotting out 32 brass, 16 percussion and 16 colorguard, and you make it achieve high levels of excellence, you have a chance against Open Class.

--) This will encourage members and staff-types who live closer to a Class A corps stay with that corps, instead of going with the "awe-struck" feeling of marching/working with the bigger, Open Class corps further down the road.

--) finally, I always assumed it already worked this way! Measuring excellence is the same no matter what size the corps might be. But it also makes sense to group them together for their own circuit as well.

[OldStyleCorps]

Maniac used the magic word - inclusiveness. This, to me, is what differentiates DCA from so many of the other circuits with which we're all familiar - both today and in the past.

And the encouragement provided to Class A, alumni, mini-corps, etc. is a sterling example of that.

I may not have said it as refined as Andy and Brassomanic, above this. BUT !!!! WE all agree! Thanks Guy's for the Help with the words I was trying to say.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited May 3, 2009 by OldStyleCorps

[Fred Windish]

Bruckner8 brings up some interesting points. Thanks.

First of all, there's no question in my mind DCA (the organization) is all-inclusive. That's a wonderful thing. I've seen it first hand.

Whatever corps decides to register Class A (even if a former Open Class participant) does so to be part of the process that determines which similar-sized group does it best. Past history means nothing, since ALL are within the 65 person limit. If their final score happens to be higher than an Open Class (larger) corps, so be it. For DCA to give such achievers a vote at the table (regardless of size) is not only commendable, but a show of confidence in those who judge its product.

I believe what Bruckner8 might be alluding to is something like this. . . can a small Star United group march around in Class A and still win High Brass (plus other categories?) for the entire weekend, no matter what declaration? I don't know.

In any event, it should be obvious, DCA is trying to do what it can to give EVERY corps a place at the table. That's something to value!

[TomPeashey]

good discussion....

is bigger better... nope... and even I can think of a few questions that are yet to be answered - that are NOT handled in the rules... but those questions surround some very unlikely scenarios... so I'll keep them to myself...

From a judging standpoint.... if a 65 performer corps does everything equal to a 120 performer corps in every way, design/performance etc... two things enter into the picture... again, we're making the huge assumption that all writing and performing is equal...

1. on many sheets... if the two groups do everything equal - the larger corps wins - why... simply more ingredients, more exposure to error and some less obvious things like more demand due to having a larger distance between elements etc etc etc - but wins by how much is a HUGE question... if both are box 5, they should both be in box 5

2. on effect, while not a definite, all things being equal, it is logical to assume that more elements could produce more effect... but how much more? again, if both are box 5, they should both be in box 5

again, we're assumming two corps completely equal in program and performance - just radically different in size... but all of that is conjecture and judging methodry until you have 2 real groups to compare. DCA over the years has always remained accutely aware of quality over quantity (after many lessons from Bushwackers and others). I'm very comfortable saying that something THAT good will be fairly judged and properly rewarded...

[Fran Haring]

Heh, ain't it great having enough corps at Prelims to be able to HAVE seperate clases.

Absolutely..... the current state of affairs is in the "happy problem" category.

1993.... 13 corps at prelims, the same 13 at finals. The fewest I've seen since I started working at the championships in 1983.

DCA and the all-age corps movement have come a long way in recent years.

Fran

[Bruckner8]

good discussion....

is bigger better... nope... and even I can think of a few questions that are yet to be answered - that are NOT handled in the rules... but those questions surround some very unlikely scenarios... so I'll keep them to myself...

From a judging standpoint.... if a 65 performer corps does everything equal to a 120 performer corps in every way, design/performance etc... two things enter into the picture... again, we're making the huge assumption that all writing and performing is equal...

1. on many sheets... if the two groups do everything equal - the larger corps wins - why... simply more ingredients, more exposure to error and some less obvious things like more demand due to having a larger distance between elements etc etc etc - but wins by how much is a HUGE question... if both are box 5, they should both be in box 5

2. on effect, while not a definite, all things being equal, it is logical to assume that more elements could produce more effect... but how much more? again, if both are box 5, they should both be in box 5

again, we're assumming two corps completely equal in program and performance - just radically different in size... but all of that is conjecture and judging methodry until you have 2 real groups to compare. DCA over the years has always remained accutely aware of quality over quantity (after many lessons from Bushwackers and others). I'm very comfortable saying that something THAT good will be fairly judged and properly rewarded...

What if the Class A corps "achieves better" just becuase of the simplicity, or less ingredients? This is what Garfield Cadets did when they got rid of the French Horns. They removed ticks, and claimed that the other hornlines were not able to achieve the accuracy, even if the other hornlines were more complex and interesting. Now, at the same time, in an historically significant hypocrisy, Garfield was REWARDED for their advanced drill, EVEN IF IT WAS NOT ACHIEVED (ie, falling down and getting perfect scores).

My question is: Should difficulty be rewarded if it's not achieved? IOW, should difficulty be rewarded JUST BECUASE IT'S THERE? (In Garfield's case, brass was an entrenched caption [cleanliness mattered more], but visual was relatively new ["newness" mattered more, apparently].)

I'm just curious as to how DCA might behave on this.

I marched Contra with the 2000 Empire Statesmen. After we perfomed a show (mid summer), Hawthorne came on, and I stood next to Mr B, listening to Hawthorne from the track. I couldn't believe the noise coming out of their horns, and the crowd ate it up. I turned to Mr B and said "if that $#!t beats us (horns), I'm never marching DCA again." It did, and I haven't. I'm aware of DCA's mantra on entertaining the crowd, but I could not stomach the outright politics and reward system that rewards absolute garbage when it comes to musical excellence. The lesson learned was "If you have 4 screech trumpeters, no matter how unmusical, no matter how out of tune, no matter how accurate, no matter how out of context, it will be rewarded if the crowd likes you."

I'm hoping subtle changes like this (with the Class A stuff) will put more focus on excellence, especially if diffuculty is rewarded when achieved. I love that about DCI...not sure about DCA yet...but I'll keep an open mind.