How do you want your guard?

[SBrancheau]

I'm not suggesting we return to the 70's for crying out loud.  But, from the stands dance looks sloppy, and most I don't want kids to see.  When the guard dances, they disappear.  All anyone sees are tosses....there is a lot out there that is cool without being a 6 or 7. 

All things will eventuallly ballance themselves.  Maybe guard will too, but I sure would like some guard show their unique tallents, not their assets.

guard member/instructor for 32 years.

nodsnodsnodsnodsnodsnodsnodsnodsnods

:::man, I'm making myself dizzy:::

[jojo]

Join me on a trip down memory lane.....(sorry)

.

I'm thinking it was 76 ??? Maybe Western Regionals??? I remember a guard (I think it was the Seattle Cascades???? and/or a Stanley Knaub guard) that did more of a dance routine than a colorguard show ... and we all stood there with our mouths open and said WTF. Hey, who knew!

Remember when it was called "comp" guard and not winterguard ... and there were posting pots, a pass in review and a color pre???

I love nostalgia!

Edited May 16, 2003 by jojo

[TrishDish1002]

OK guys, surprised it took me so long to find this post, but here it goes...

I...

...1. "aged-out" of WGI in 1986 after 5 very successful in the NY Royal Guardsmen; a guard that began "military" and became very innovative as years went on (####, my first 2 years, I wore black military men's dress shoes an did high marktime!)

...2. am STILL performing with one of the many successful guard programs in DCA - Syracuse Brigadiers!

Did I just tell you that to "toot my own horn" (pun intended)? NO. I just wanted to make it known that I have been invovled in ALL of the "styles" of guard that you refer to. And just for the record, from a performer standpoint...

...It is MUCH MORE CHALLENGING NOW!

Those same tosses and exchanges I had to do in the "80s" standing with my feet "together", I now have to do with a passe' and catch it in 4th position (and know what all that means too). Dance class is now much more than a couple of lunges, roll your head and go grab a flag. It's a full-out dance class with, in many cases, professional dancers at the helm (Kristin Whiting's dance classes are one of my favorite parts of the weekend - even at my age!) There are parts of shows that you won't even be considered for if your body isn't good, no matter how good your hands are.

We don't "spin the weapons we pose with them?" deftguy? Really? 'cause I threw a triple, a quad, a five, a 6 and a right-handed blade quad on sabre last summer in Brigs! And go tell April Gilligan, Bruno Zuccala and Scott Chandler (among others) that they're "posing" with their weapons (much less all of DCI and DCA!)

I saw the San Jose Raiders this season. They were truly amazing and Flo is right - you do get more points for encompassing BOTH body and equipment than just doing as Geoffrey said "45 minutes of hip-hop". And who says "dance" means "pretty show"?

Please - if you don't believe me - get out there and try it. It's not easy but I have learned more in 3 summers and the last few seasons of winter guard than I have my whole career!

Oh - and btw - I didn't vote. There is no right answer to this one!

[deftguy]

We don't "spin the weapons we pose with them?" deftguy? Really? 'cause I threw a triple, a quad, a five, a 6 and a right-handed blade quad on sabre last summer in Brigs!

Can you explain to me your interpretation of a spin and a toss? I distinctively remember that spins hit your hand at every count. A toss spins in the air one or more counts. A triple is a toss, not a spin. I don't think anyone would disagree with me when I say they don't spin(in the traditional way, not this made up whatever new way)in shows today. If it happens, it is for a very brief time. Shows today have tempo's that are much to fast for spinning, epecially for doing double time.

And go tell April Gilligan, Bruno Zuccala and Scott Chandler (among others) that they're "posing" with their weapons (much less all of DCI and DCA!)

Okay, no problem. They are all great caption heads(April and Buno I really like, I'll think I pass on the latter)but I still have no problem telling any of them they don't spin in shows today. Their statue in colorguard is respected here, but not revered in god like fashion. I am sure none of them would be moved by my comments. Why should they be? Just keeping it real. B)

And who says "dance" means "pretty show"?

I know of no other word that more accurately describes it. It sure isn't in your face

Please - if you don't believe me - get out there and try it. It's not easy but I have learned more in 3 summers and the last few seasons of winter guard than I have my whole career!

You are under the faulty assumption that I have never done dance. I did dance back in the early eighties when next to no one was. I did it in winterguard and high school guard back then. Dance isn't new. Its overcooked and visually ineffective on the field. I have said that one hundred million times on this board. Winterguard, dance is perfect. Every subtle nuance can be finely resolved and visually effective. On the field you are wasting your time with all of the senseless emoting, intellectual and asthetic pyrotechnics. Congratulations to you for your growth in the activity by the way.

I'm thinking it was 76 ??? Maybe Western Regionals??? I remember a guard (I think it was the Seattle Cascades???? and/or a Stanley Knaub guard) that did more of a dance routine than a colorguard show ... and we all stood there with our mouths open and said WTF. Hey, who knew!

Jojo,

It was 1978 western regionals. I remember this because I marched in the Canberra Brigade that year and we did pretty good. That was my first year in winterguard and I was just a baby then. They were called the Seattle Imperials. They married ballet and colorguard in such a unique and professional way that I actually loved it. That guard could out dance ANY colorguard in existance today with one leg broken. Not to mention their equipment handling skills were beyond reproach. They were SOOOOOO far ahead of there time that it was a shame. If guards danced on that level today, I would have no problem with dance. In my senior year in high school guard, Stanley choreographed our winterguard show and man was he amazing. He actually taught me how to dance and made it really fun.

Edited May 17, 2003 by deftguy

[jojo]

Jojo,

It was 1978 western regionals. I remember this because I marched in the Canberra Brigade that year and we did pretty good. That was my first year in winterguard and I was just a baby then. They were called the Seattle Imperials. They married ballet and colorguard in such a unique and professional way that I actually loved it. That guard could out dance ANY colorguard in existance today with one leg broken. Not to mention their equipment handling skills were beyond reproach. They were SOOOOOO far ahead of there time that it was a shame. If guards danced on that level today, I would have no problem with dance. In my senior year in high school guard, Stanley choreographed our winterguard show and man was he amazing. He actually taught me how to dance and made it really fun.

Hey Deft -- you're absolutely right about it being the Imperials!!! Good or not, it was a WTF moment. I was teaching in 76 and 77 ... I guess I could still have been hanging around in 78 but I don't think so. I do remember Canberra Brigade very well tho. I taught a B guard called the "Barons" and I saw Canberra when we took the guard to the competitions in the Northwest in 77.

Stan was way ahead of his time in most things. I met him when I was 13 -- he and Mike Moxley were my very first instructors -- they were both in their age out yr as marching members of SCV at the time and they were teaching a little guard from Redwood City, CA called The Guardsmen. They are the ones who encouraged me, and several others, to try out for SCV the following year. He ended up being my instructor again at SCV in 74/75. I wish Stan could have seen the SCV alumni guard cuz I think he would have loved it. I have a super picture of him wearing a plastic garbage bag ... haha ... long story! :P

[TrishDish1002]

We don't "spin the weapons we pose with them?" deftguy? Really? 'cause I threw a triple, a quad, a five, a 6 and a right-handed blade quad on sabre last summer in Brigs!

Can you explain to me your interpretation of a spin and a toss? I distinctively remember that spins hit your hand at every count. A toss spins in the air one or more counts. A triple is a toss, not a spin. I don't think anyone would disagree with me when I say they don't spin(in the traditional way, not this made up whatever new way)in shows today. If it happens, it is for a very brief time. Shows today have tempo's that are much to fast for spinning, epecially for doing double time.

Perfectly clear on the difference between spins and tosses - however neither equals "pose"...thanks!

Oh, and check out the Brigs rifle line this year if you wanna see double-time. Ever heard "Pinball Wizard"? Pretty brisk tempo and they're getting through it just fine :)

[deftguy]

Perfectly clear on the difference between spins and tosses - however neither equals "pose"...thanks!

Trish, you are trying to spin this like a top so I am going to put it to you another way just to slow the rotation a bit. How many catches does ANYONE do with the legs closed and body straight, rifles at the exact same height and angle? Almost NOBODY does it. They catch with a lunge, kick, lean, or dance move.. That is what I call " posing". You know, when you catch it anyway but straight. You still haven't fully explained the linkage between a toss and a spin so I am still lost on the point you were trying to make.

Oh, and check out the Brigs rifle line this year if you wanna see double-time. Ever heard "Pinball Wizard"? Pretty brisk tempo and they're getting through it just fine

I am very familar with "pinball wizard" . My high school band did the song in one of our football halftime shows. The tempo is brisk, but not nearly as fast as drills that are done by lets say the Cadets, or perhaps the Cavaliers in 2002. So you didn't make your point on this one either.

Edited May 17, 2003 by deftguy

[vintage rifle]

I'm thinking it was 76 ??? Maybe Western Regionals??? I remember a guard (I think it was the Seattle Cascades???? and/or a Stanley Knaub guard) that did more of a dance routine than a colorguard show ... and we all stood there with our mouths open and said WTF. Hey, who knew!

Remember when it was called "comp" guard and not winterguard ... and there were posting pots, a pass in review and a color pre???

Yep, it was comp guard at Western Regionals in Concord. Pass in review was the first command, and we had nightmares worring if we would hit the posting buckets.

I also don't remember a single guard there. None were familiar at the time.

Anyway, even if some were "ahead of their time" they lost big time. That was my point.

[LegalEagle50]

okay - time out!!!

why does it have to be that Trish has to make her point to you Deft? you referred to today's work as "fluff" earlier. shouldn't it be you that have to show your proof of that too? why is it that we can't all just co-exist in this activity? why is it that some people keep feeling the need to rip current marchers apart because of the type of guard work being done nowadays? i don't notice threads started about how the old stuff sucked so bad and was boring, but i do notice threads started for the purpose of ripping apart the guard of today.

Case in Point as far as the theory of proof:

Deft: shouldn't you be the one who really needs to show that facial expressions aren't necessary on the field because only the first 3 rows can see them? it's funny you say that because i was at Bridgeport DCI and sat mid-way up and could see all the guard and was in the top row at Bristol DCI and had no problem their either. admittedly i did watch some of DCA from half-way up in the upper tier of the stadium and couldn't see all then. there are only a few shows overall in the season though that have that huge type of stadium seating. most shows are done on high school fields with small stands and the corps are incredibly accessible and visible. many of us think emoting is a good thing and that there is no reason to march with a straightface and emotionless look on your face.

anyways, that's my perspective on it. i'm not trying to prove a point, just saying i have an opinion. but i find that many people here like to tell you your opinion is wrong if it doesn't coincide with theirs.

so here's my suggestion: since we all have varying opinions on it, lets try no to make it personal. keep the discussions friendly and continuing. keep the "i'm right because i feel this way and that means you're wrong" parts out. because honestly, if this forum is going to become another "us against them" forum it's not worth reading.

[deftguy]

why does it have to be that Trish has to make her point to you Deft?

Are you Trish's guard dog? Can she not answer for herself since the post is directed to HER.

you referred to today's work as "fluff" earlier. shouldn't it be you that have to show your proof of that too? why is it that we can't all just co-exist in this activity? why is it that some people keep feeling the need to rip current marchers apart because of the type of guard work being done nowadays?

I argue that what makes color guard interesting is that you are trying to accomplish body (dance), equipment and movement (drill) while projecting intellectual, aestethic and emotional effects. When you do all six of those things at the same time (combining both the performance and GE triads)-- now you are talking some hard ####.

You could have said all of this in one word. FLUFF

while projecting intellectual, aestethic and emotional effects

This part of the comment is fluff to me, not today's guard work. How in the heck do you project intellectual, aestethic and emotion ON A FOOTBALL FIELD?

why is it that some people keep feeling the need to rip current marchers apart because of the type of guard work being done nowadays? i don't notice threads started about how the old stuff sucked so bad and was boring, but i do notice threads started for the purpose of ripping apart the guard of today.

You are being overly emotional and defensive. Nobody is attacking the marcher, they are directed at the instructors and caption heads. Do the marchers design the show, or write the guards equipment book? Not in most corps. Nobody makes these comments about the stuff they did in the past because we did with precision, in unison, and it was VERY clean. However, many current marchers don't respect the guards of the past and their accomplishments and this was commented on in this very thread by Jojo.

Deft: shouldn't you be the one who really needs to show that facial expressions aren't necessary on the field because only the first 3 rows can see them? it's funny you say that because i was at Bridgeport DCI and sat mid-way up and could see all the guard and was in the top row at Bristol DCI and had no problem their either. admittedly i did watch some of DCA from half-way up in the upper tier of the stadium and couldn't see all then.

You have used two examples both small stadiums to make your point. Unfortunately the championships are not held in smaller more intimate stadiums. They are held in large capacity not so itimate stadiums. In these stadiums there are very few seats that are optimal for prime emoting viewing. The rest of us pay more attention to the tossed rifle or spinning flag.

Here is my challenge to you. Show me ONE DVD where the high camera shot can pick up a smile. JUST ONE! Give me an example of one stadium where a championship took place where a smile can be seen from the upper tier, or any other non optimal seat.

admittedly i did watch some of DCA from half-way up in the upper tier of the stadium and couldn't see all then

Thank you for making my point. There are a finite amount of seats on the ground floor and between the 35 yard lines. The rest must sit in places that are not optimal to make emoting and projecting intellectual, aestethics and emotional effects visually effective

many of us think emoting is a good thing and that there is no reason to march with a straightface and emotionless look on your face.

Why not? If more than 20,000 people cannot see your emoting then what is the point? Are you doing it just for something to do?

anyways, that's my perspective on it. i'm not trying to prove a point, just saying i have an opinion. but i find that many people here like to tell you your opinion is wrong if it doesn't coincide with theirs.

Just like you are doing now. You are clocking me just because I stated my opinion. Sounds like hypocracy to me.

so here's my suggestion: since we all have varying opinions on it, lets try no to make it personal.

While you are at it, why not kick overly emotional and defensive to the curb too.

because honestly, if this forum is going to become another "us against them" forum it's not worth reading.

If this is going to be a touchy feely dance is good forum then its not worth reading. If it going to be a forum where one can't HONESTLY state their opinions, then it is a forum not worth reading. I can live three lifetimes and will NEVER agree that dance is more visually effective than a equipment work. My experience just does not support this. I have stood in many stadiums all over this country looking at different colorguards do their things. The only time I could see any facial expressions is when I was either on the field level, or in the first few rows close to the field. At any other point the face is harder to focus on while other things are happening on the field. It is both a logical and a scientific fact that in a large space, and in the presence of other moving objects, the eye will focus on the object that is the largest, or making the largest move. I think everyone who has been in colorguard for more than ten minutes would agree that it is easier to see a spinning flag or rifle from a MAJORITY of the seats in a stadium than it would be to see a smiling or emoting face. If everyone can't see it, its fluff plain and simple.

Edited May 20, 2003 by deftguy