How do you want your guard?

[LegalEagle50]

. . . it's funny you say that because i was at Bridgeport DCI and sat mid-way up and could see all the guard and was in the top row at Bristol DCI and had no problem their either. admittedly i did watch some of DCA from half-way up in the upper tier of the stadium and couldn't see all then.

You have used two examples both small stadiums to make your point. Unfortunately the championships are not held in smaller more intimate stadiums. They are held in large capacity not so itimate stadiums. In these stadiums there are very few seats that are optimal for prime emoting viewing. The rest of us pay more attention to the tossed rifle or spinning flag.

Here is my challenge to you. Show me ONE DVD where the high camera shot can pick up a smile. JUST ONE! Give me an example of one stadium where a championship took place where a smile can be seen from the upper tier, or any other non optimal seat.

admittedly i did watch some of DCA from half-way up in the upper tier of the stadium and couldn't see all then

Thank you for making my point. There are a finite amount of seats on the ground floor and between the 35 yard lines. The rest must sit in places that are not optimal to make emoting and projecting intellectual, aestethics and emotional effects visually effective

many of us think emoting is a good thing and that there is no reason to march with a straightface and emotionless look on your face.

Why not? If more than 20,000 people cannot see your emoting then what is the point? Are you doing it just for something to do?

anyways, that's my perspective on it. i'm not trying to prove a point, just saying i have an opinion. but i find that many people here like to tell you your opinion is wrong if it doesn't coincide with theirs.

Just like you are doing now. You are clocking me just because I stated my opinion. Sounds like hypocrasy to me.

so here's my suggestion: since we all have varying opinions on it, lets try no to make it personal.

While you are at it, why not kick overly emotional and defensive to the curb too.

because honestly, if this forum is going to become another "us against them" forum it's not worth reading.

If this is going to be a touchy feely dance is good forum then its not worth reading. If it going to be a forum where one can't HONESTLY state their opinions, then it is a forum not worth reading. I can live three lifetimes and will NEVER agree that dance is more visually effective than equipment work. My experience just does not support this. I have stood in many stadiums all over this country looking at different colorguards do their things. The only time I could see any facial expressions is when I was either on the field level, or in the first few rows close to the field. At any other point the face is harder to focus on while other things are happening on the field. It is both a logical and a scientific fact that in a large space, and in the presence of other moving objects, the eye will focus on the object that is the largest, or making the largest move. I think everyone who has been in colorguard for more than ten minutes would agree that it is easier to see a spinning flag or rifle from a MAJORITY of the seats in a stadium than it would be to see a smiling or emoting face. If everyone can't see it, its fluff plain and simple.

i'm not Trish's guard dog. but i watch anyone with an opinion that they like color guard the way it is get ripped apart.

Kennedy Stadium, in Bridgeport, isn't a tiny stadium - i believe it seats approximately 10,000 people. they may have lost a few seats in the renovation for ramps and handicap seating and bathrooms, but it is still a very large stadium by everyday standards.

i do pay attention to the rifle tosses and the spinning flags, not jsut the emoting viewing. why don't you show me ONE DVD where the high camera shot can show you the exact hand positions on the flag, rifle or saber. no, that's pretty much all a blur too from that persepctive. and yet the judges down on the field are concerned about it. just as they are with emoting and such.

as far as 20,000 people emoting? when was the last time 20,000 people were actually at finals? really. give me a realistic number here.

i didn't say i want a touchy feely dance is good forum. talk about blowing stuff out of proportion. but when all it is is arguing about old vs new, well then this place might as well be re-named RAMD. <_<

and lastly if everyone can't see it, it's fluff plain and simple?? since i started in this activity there have always been parts of shows i couldn't be able to see from one particular vantage point or another. doesn't mean that they were fluff. and YES spinning a flag is easier to see. doesn't mean watching it is as entertaining tho.

some people like fluff, others don't. you telling us that we are wrong wrong wrong does nothing to get the point across. obviously from the results of this poll there are people out there who want more than just guardwork alone. wasn't that the point of the original pole anyways? the majority agreed that dance was an important factor in guard. not all dance. not most dance but definately that is should be included.

[zackiedude]

This part of the comment is fluff to me, not today guard work. How in the heck do you project intellectual, aestethic and emotion ON A FOOTBALL FIELD?

How do you express intellectual, asethetic and emotional effects without talking in person? There are various things that most people do to express feelings (not just facial expressions, either) that much modern dance in colorguard incorporates.

Show me ONE DVD where the high camera shot can pick up a smile. JUST ONE!

If more than 20,000 people cannot see your emoting then what is the point? Are you doing it just for something to do?

If everyone can't see it, its fluff plain and simple.

Not everyone in the stands can see high marchers lift their toes or how well their individual technique is. That doesn't make it unimporant does it? Because according to you, it would be fluff...

I've been to what I believe is my fair share of marching competitions (HS and DCI) and I can see emotions in the colorguards from up high. From the very back of any high school stadium it is VERY easy to see them, and I could still see the emotions the colorguards were expression at BOA Nationals this year from the second-tier backfield.

-Zack

[deftguy]

i'm not Trish's guard dog. but i watch anyone with an opinion that they like color guard the way it is get ripped apart.

My bad. So you are the colorguard forum watch dog. You must be really busy coming to the rescue of everyone who seemingly can't defend themselves in a lively, but friendly debate.

Kennedy Stadium, in Bridgeport, isn't a tiny stadium - i believe it seats approximately 10,000 people. they may have lost a few seats in the renovation for ramps and handicap seating and bathrooms, but it is still a very large stadium by everyday standards

A 10,000 seat stadium is not large in the grand scheme of things. Not when they hold finals in stadiums that seat 40-50,000 people. I think you are thinking a little small.

i do pay attention to the rifle tosses and the spinning flags, not jsut the emoting viewing. why don't you show me ONE DVD where the high camera shot can show you the exact hand positions on the flag, rifle or saber. no, that's pretty much all a blur too from that persepctive. and yet the judges down on the field are concerned about it. just as they are with emoting and such.

You're spinning the point to make a point. I never made any reference to hand postitioning because I know that it is not visible from the pressbox. My reference is to spinning and tossing versus a smile or emoting. Since there is no arguement that a spin is easier to see than a facial expression I can clearly see why you are spinning the subject. You are pretty transparent. Correct hand positioning is an integral part of equipment handling and colorguard as a whole(well it used to be anyway). Emoting is not. Its just that simple.

as far as 20,000 people emoting? when was the last time 20,000 people were actually at finals? really. give me a realistic number here.

Sorry, when I marched there WERE 20,000+ people attending finals. Well, maybe all of those people are taking dance classes so they can fully understand where caption heads are trying to take colorguard. Or maybe they have lost interest in the art.

i didn't say i want a touchy feely dance is good forum. talk about blowing stuff out of proportion. but when all it is is arguing about old vs new, well then this place might as well be re-named RAMD

Its not blown out of proportion, you took all of this out of context. This is not an arguement about old vs new. You made it that way because you are reading all of this with an adversarial position. Its a arguement of precision, what is clean and uniform versus intellectual, aestethic and emotional effects. In other words substance versus fluff, not old versus new. Once again, click your mouse on emotions and defensiveness off.

some people like fluff, others don't

These days ALOT of people like fluff and it is very evident.

you telling us that we are wrong wrong wrong does nothing to get the point across.

I never said anything was wrong, wrong, wrong. The word waste is very different from wrong. You are twisting and spinning my words to make your point.

obviously from the results of this poll there are people out there who want more than just guardwork alone. wasn't that the point of the original pole anyways? the majority agreed that dance was an important factor in guard. not all dance. not most dance but definately that is should be included.

I voted for more equipment work, a little dance, but no props. And dance is not an IMPORTANT part of colorguard. It is a part of colorguard. The important part of colorguard is getting whatever you are doing whether it be dance, equipment work, or both done simultaneously clean and uniform. This is the reason so many alumni are displeased with the direction colorguard has taken. Too much emphasis on dance class, and not enough on equipment precision and uniformity.

I personally think you are reading this poll all wrong just to support your responses.

Emphasis on dance, some equipment work, lots of props & costumes

This is the current state of colorguard

Emphasis on equipment work, some dance...some props and costumes

This is what is leading in the poll and does not reflect the current state of colorguard today.

Equal balance of dance and equipment work...but with props and costumes

Even if this reflects current state of the art in colorguard to some people, it is still not leading in this poll. More people(and me included) would like to see way more emphasis on the equipment, and use dance only when appropriate to the music. That means you shouldn't need a dance class, or a degree in dance to be in colorguard.

I've been to what I believe is my fair share of marching competitions (HS and DCI) and I can see emotions in the colorguards from up high.

Zack, with all due respect to you that is not my experience. Maybe you have better eyes than I(and many people on this board and in the upper tiers of the stands) have. Now, my question remains, which is EASIER to see. A smile of emoting face, or a spinning flag or rifle?

Not everyone in the stands can see high marchers lift their toes or how well their individual technique is. That doesn't make it unimporant does it? Because according to you, it would be fluff...

You are guilty of the same majoring in minors that legal eagle is. Proper marching technique(whether seen or unseen) is an integral part of any marching activity. Emoting is not. Proper marching technique, hand postitions, leg lift height, stride, clean catches, and equipment postitioning have all been apart of colorguards since DCI began and earlier than that. Emoting and facial expressions are not. There are guidlines for proper marching and equipment handling techniques. There is no proper technique for emoting or smiling.

How do you express intellectual, asethetic and emotional effects without talking in person? There are various things that most people do to express feelings (not just facial expressions, either) that much modern dance in colorguard incorporates.

Can you show me how to relate to an audience that I am angry without a facial expression? How about sadness, or loneliness? What can I do with just my body that can relay these emotions without using my face. If you can give me an effective answer to this you will revolutionize the way humans interact with each other. Image me trying to tell you I am angry or disappointed with you with no words, or facial expression. Sorry man, it don't fly. Without a facial expression the is no effective way to convey anger or disappointment. We would girate and wiggle ourselves to death trying to do it. When it comes to coveying emotion, your face is half the equation. If that were not the case, then there would be no need to emote on the field right?

Edited May 20, 2003 by deftguy

[GMichael1230]

Rifles, flags, and/or sabres are supposed to enhance the story that the drums and brass are telling. Smiling, facial expressions and gyrating are fluff...plain and simple. Not bagging anything, I pay good money to go see the fluff..maybe I have evolved, more likely adapted because I love the activity, but the fact is.........

RIfles, flags, and/or sabres were highly effective in getting the point across. There were more corps using them, more shows with corps using them, more members using them, and more people watching them, loving them and cheering for them.....that is a FACT.

~G~

[TrishDish1002]

why does it have to be that Trish has to make her point to you Deft?

Are you Trish's guard dog? Can she not answer for herself since the post is directed to HER.

you referred to today's work as "fluff" earlier. shouldn't it be you that have to show your proof of that too? why is it that we can't all just co-exist in this activity? why is it that some people keep feeling the need to rip current marchers apart because of the type of guard work being done nowadays?

I argue that what makes color guard interesting is that you are trying to accomplish body (dance), equipment and movement (drill) while projecting intellectual, aestethic and emotional effects. When you do all six of those things at the same time (combining both the performance and GE triads)-- now you are talking some hard ####.

You could have said all of this in one word. FLUFF

while projecting intellectual, aestethic and emotional effects

This part of the comment is fluff to me, not today guard work. How in the heck do you project intellectual, aestethic and emotion ON A FOOTBALL FIELD?

why is it that some people keep feeling the need to rip current marchers apart because of the type of guard work being done nowadays? i don't notice threads started about how the old stuff sucked so bad and was boring, but i do notice threads started for the purpose of ripping apart the guard of today.

You are being overly emotional and defensive. Nobody is attacking the marcher, they are directed at the instructors and caption heads. Do the marchers design the show, or write the guards equipment book? Not in most corps. Nobody makes these comments about the stuff they did in the past because we did with precision, in unison, and it was VERY clean. However, many current marchers don't respect the guards of the past and their accomplishments and this was commented on in this very thread by Jojo.

Deft: shouldn't you be the one who really needs to show that facial expressions aren't necessary on the field because only the first 3 rows can see them? it's funny you say that because i was at Bridgeport DCI and sat mid-way up and could see all the guard and was in the top row at Bristol DCI and had no problem their either. admittedly i did watch some of DCA from half-way up in the upper tier of the stadium and couldn't see all then.

You have used two examples both small stadiums to make your point. Unfortunately the championships are not held in smaller more intimate stadiums. They are held in large capacity not so itimate stadiums. In these stadiums there are very few seats that are optimal for prime emoting viewing. The rest of us pay more attention to the tossed rifle or spinning flag.

Here is my challenge to you. Show me ONE DVD where the high camera shot can pick up a smile. JUST ONE! Give me an example of one stadium where a championship took place where a smile can be seen from the upper tier, or any other non optimal seat.

admittedly i did watch some of DCA from half-way up in the upper tier of the stadium and couldn't see all then

Thank you for making my point. There are a finite amount of seats on the ground floor and between the 35 yard lines. The rest must sit in places that are not optimal to make emoting and projecting intellectual, aestethics and emotional effects visually effective

many of us think emoting is a good thing and that there is no reason to march with a straightface and emotionless look on your face.

Why not? If more than 20,000 people cannot see your emoting then what is the point? Are you doing it just for something to do?

anyways, that's my perspective on it. i'm not trying to prove a point, just saying i have an opinion. but i find that many people here like to tell you your opinion is wrong if it doesn't coincide with theirs.

Just like you are doing now. You are clocking me just because I stated my opinion. Sounds like hypocrasy to me.

so here's my suggestion: since we all have varying opinions on it, lets try no to make it personal.

While you are at it, why not kick overly emotional and defensive to the curb too.

because honestly, if this forum is going to become another "us against them" forum it's not worth reading.

If this is going to be a touchy feely dance is good forum then its not worth reading. If it going to be a forum where one can't HONESTLY state their opinions, then it is a forum not worth reading. I can live three lifetimes and will NEVER agree that dance is more visually effective than equipment work. My experience just does not support this. I have stood in many stadiums all over this country looking at different colorguards do their things. The only time I could see any facial expressions is when I was either on the field level, or in the first few rows close to the field. At any other point the face is harder to focus on while other things are happening on the field. It is both a logical and a scientific fact that in a large space, and in the presence of other moving objects, the eye will focus on the object that is the largest, or making the largest move. I think everyone who has been in colorguard for more than ten minutes would agree that it is easier to see a spinning flag or rifle from a MAJORITY of the seats in a stadium than it would be to see a smiling or emoting face. If everyone can't see it, its fluff plain and simple.

sorry, Trish couldn't get back to you sooner, but she was away all weekend practicing posing, or fluff or whatever it is you wanna call it.

Actually the part about not catching flat anymore? Yeah, the sheets are actually written to credit variety in catches and releases - the judges want to see that the performers can handle different positions and that the designers can be creative.

Thanks Liz for your support - however, yes Trish can answer for herself - ask anyone who knows me!

[LancerFi]

I did write a 4 paragragh reply which I deleted in error.

If you need to use the face to sell a show something is either missing or there isn't enough of something. If you're in the front row and can actually see their faces, they are so labored and over the top that it looks ridiculous. Unless it's BD or a very good guard, most actually look like the smile from the Miss America Pageant. I know 1 or 2 people and Malibu can attest to that absolutely ruin their whole show by what they are doing with these faces - making these I'm hot #### faces.... ampssuck

I will repeat this part: at DCI East in 2001 I could see Madisons toes when they were marching, however people would have been pretty hard pressed to even pick out their own son/daughter from the nose bleed section unless they knew where they were in the show.

You still can't take away that they are throwing 6's and 7's, and change equipment and props between 5-10 times in a show, which are all weighted differently while going 180 bpm and dancing as well.

Having said that, if you need to catch that 6 or 7 in a lunge, on the run, or moving off your spot, it loses something and shows just how off the actual throw (and catch) is. That's what I believe we are calling a pose!

Well, I liked my original post better, but it's gone but not forgotten!

Edited May 19, 2003 by LancerFi

[deftguy]

Actually the part about not catching flat anymore? Yeah, the sheets are actually written to credit variety in catches and releases - the judges want to see that the performers can handle different positions and that the designers can be creative.

Trish, when I refer to a flat catch, I mean a catch with no wiggle. Solid and definative. At whatever angle you catch, the rifle or sabre should not wiggle or jerk back into position. This is one of the biggest most prominent sin I see in colorguard today. When I was in the Cavies, we caught at all different angles, but the catches were solid and clean with no wiggle or jerking back into position. I don't see this anymore. Even releases were not done in unison even when they were supposed to. The judges actually give credit for this? :( b**bs

[LancerFi]

Actually the part about not catching flat anymore? Yeah, the sheets are actually written to credit variety in catches and releases - the judges want to see that the performers can handle different positions and that the designers can be creative.

Trish, when I refer to a flat catch, I mean a catch with no wiggle. Solid and definative. At whatever angle you catch, the rifle or sabre should not wiggle or jerk back into position. This is one of the biggest most prominent sin I see in colorguard today. When I was in the Cavies, we caught at all different angles, but the catches were solid and clean with no wiggle or jerking back into position. I don't see this anymore. Even releases were not done in unison even when they were supposed to. The judges actually give credit for this? :( b**bs

deftguy, we too caught in every perceivable way possible, one handed, 2 handed, behind the back, under the leg, at every angle. So I'm not sure what the difference is that people are now talking about. Oh as well as catching laying down, catching in a 1/2 split, I don't believe I need to go on...

Yes we know that guards all try to catch on different angles, but it's how they do it that's in question, not how many, but how well it's done!

Edited May 20, 2003 by LancerFi

[TrishDish1002]

Actually the part about not catching flat anymore? Yeah, the sheets are actually written to credit variety in catches and releases - the judges want to see that the performers can handle different positions and that the designers can be creative.

Trish, when I refer to a flat catch, I mean a catch with no wiggle. Solid and definative. At whatever angle you catch, the rifle or sabre should not wiggle or jerk back into position. This is one of the biggest most prominent sin I see in colorguard today. When I was in the Cavies, we caught at all different angles, but the catches were solid and clean with no wiggle or jerking back into position. I don't see this anymore. Even releases were not done in unison even when they were supposed to. The judges actually give credit for this? :( b**bs

then don't go to shows...stay home and watch the home movies of the old days....

[SBrancheau]

then don't go to shows...stay home and watch the home movies of the old days....

Hey now! Just as you've gotten YOUR opinion in, so can they.

Oh, and just so you know, Trish:

:::whispers:::

they're right.