Current SCV era

[BillH]

Tell me, what logic are you using, when placing a corps that hasn't even finished 2nd or 3rd (let alone WON) into the Upper Elite? IMO, we can't place a corps into the Upper Elite until they've won at least once, and challenged for the title a few other times. That takes at least three years.

Crown 2008 was not an Elite show...it was far too easy to be called Elite (any corps that plays in Bb as often as they did, does not deserve to be called Elite.) Was it performed well? Yes. Did I love listening to the hornline, as a fan? Hell yes I did. But when using the criteria of the Elite, the true Elite should be offended by adding Crown to that list (right now).

Crown hasn't done anything Bluecoats haven't done. Crown hasn't even won a single caption during Finals Week! Bluecoats have: Brass 2007 Quarters.

Had you left it as "Crown's recent shows have a championship flair lacking from the Bluecoats" I'd have to agree, especially since Crown is following a path already cleared, and Bloo seems hell-bent on doing everything their own quirky way, placement be danmed [sic, to get through the silly bad-word filters].

But adding Crown to the Elite, when they've done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is beyond illogical. It's downright dishonest!

Generally agree with your post. But I have a question. Why does the key of the music have ANYTHING to do with the quality of the show? If you were arranging for an ensemble and were told that they play on a family of intruments keyed in B-flat and F, are you saying that you would intentionally write much of the show in B or E, just to prove how accomplished they are? Wouldn't it make more sense, as the arranger, to write in keys that provide the best opportunities for intonational success, except where the music calls for something different? Are orchestral works in B-flat more "Elite" than those that are in D or G, just because they provide more pitch challenges for the strings?

Just curious where that, "You don't play hard enough key signatures, you must suck." mentality comes from.

[cowtown]

Just curious where that, "You don't play hard enough key signatures, you must suck." mentality comes from.

The build up judging system

Bluecoats recently had a brass book that was almost all in minor keys, the demand of their brass book is way higher than Crowns and the judging system is suppose to reward that

[BillH]

The build up judging system

Bluecoats recently had a brass book that was almost all in minor keys, the demand of their brass book is way higher than Crowns and the judging system is suppose to reward that

As a brass player, I gotta say that the actual parts, voicings, etc are far more important than the key. At least on fully chromatic instruments with working valve slides. Now if we were on the old 2 valve G bugles, I think there would be more merit. Or if we are talking younger, less experienced players than most WC hornlines possess.

I could see key being, at best, a tie-breaker consideration. But we must be giving these judges scores, or a lot of credit for their relative pitch recognition abilities to consider it a major demand-determination criteria. It sure is posible that g-minor, played poorly, can sound like a harder key than c#-minor played well. But g-minor certainly sits better on B-flat horns. Thus my question.

[Matt_S]

I would not. We are talking championship caliber shows here. 2008 Crown was a championship caliber show, that would have no doubt finished in the top 3 in perhaps every other season. Bluecoats, no disrespect intended, have never put a championship caliber show on the field. Crown is now one of the upper elite - with BD, Cadets, Phantom and Cavies. Any one of these, IMO, could win finals this year. I cannot say the same about Bluecoats.

Literally the only part of that I can agree with is that the Bluecoats will not with finals this year either.

On to SCV - where they've lost it IMO is in passion. I remember SCV through 2000, with a couple misses here or there, putting out extremely passionate shows that told a story and got the viewer emotional involved. Since 2001, with the exception of '04, I feel that passion is gone. I think the musical selections are the biggest problems. To each his own, but I don't understand playing all this post-modern classical music when there is so much great classical music out there is a mistake. I'm glad App Spring is back. As a classical music lover, I believe (at least for me) that post-modern classical music has sucked the passion right out of classical music. I never understood how the members could be passionate about playing a show like 2003. I think App Spring is a great start in getting SCV back to the emotional, powerful and passionate corps that wowed the world.

I disagree on the time period. I thought SCV was great up through to 2003, which was an excellent show. Orawa was one of the finest movements of any corps that year, and the original piece has become one of my favorite musical works. I'll agree with you on just about every show since then, though. Even in 2004, I thought SCV could have done more with the quality of source material they were using. I had high hopes for 2008 based on the rep, but they didn't really take advantage of that either.

[cowtown]

or a lot of credit for their relative pitch recognition abilities to consider it a major demand-determination criteria.

that's about it

the old days showed us that you could about teach a monkey how to play a show with all the practice so…

[Bruckner8]

Generally agree with your post. But I have a question. Why does the key of the music have ANYTHING to do with the quality of the show? If you were arranging for an ensemble and were told that they play on a family of intruments keyed in B-flat and F, are you saying that you would intentionally write much of the show in B or E, just to prove how accomplished they are? Wouldn't it make more sense, as the arranger, to write in keys that provide the best opportunities for intonational success, except where the music calls for something different? Are orchestral works in B-flat more "Elite" than those that are in D or G, just because they provide more pitch challenges for the strings?

Just curious where that, "You don't play hard enough key signatures, you must suck." mentality comes from.

Why does a symphony traverse many keys? Why does a fugue traverse different keys? ANS: Because variety is good. Because more emotions can be worked, even if subconsciously for the masses. For those with sharp senses of hearing, the difference is huge, even with no musical training. There is a "sameness" built into Crown's writing (esp last year), even if it's akin to eating lots, and lots and lots of Ice Cream. I found myself thinking "Enough Already!" when lsitening to their book. (This year, F Major/d minro seems to be their favorite key.)

Finally, difficulty is part of the judging process. It's on the freakin' sheets, for cryin' out loud. It's the music judges' responsibility, whether that be perc guys (I'm sure mallets would love to play on the white keys all day), the brass guys (Bb is easier...no argument from ANY brass musucian, ever), or the GE Music person (How come this music I'm listening to sounds so differnt, so unique, so magical? Could it be the key of the music? Wow, they're playing in c# minor...and making it work!)

The nod should always go to the music books that traverse more keys, that look for differnt emotions other than "let's play another Bb major chord on this hit, since we know it will be easier to tune."

IT'S THE JUDGE'S JOB TO DISCERN SUCH LEVELS OF DIFFICULTY EVEN IF THE MASSES DON'T CARE. By extension, it's the staff's responsibility to "call out" the judge when the judge doesn't notice. (and if Judge X consistently doesn't notice, then Judge X should be fired for incompetence.)

[hrnguy500]

Why does a symphony traverse many keys? Why does a fugue traverse different keys? ANS: Because variety is good. Because more emotions can be worked, even if subconsciously for the masses. For those with sharp senses of hearing, the difference is huge, even with no musical training. There is a "sameness" built into Crown's writing (esp last year), even if it's akin to eating lots, and lots and lots of Ice Cream. I found myself thinking "Enough Already!" when lsitening to their book. (This year, F Major/d minro seems to be their favorite key.)

Finally, difficulty is part of the judging process. It's on the freakin' sheets, for cryin' out loud. It's the music judges' responsibility, whether that be perc guys (I'm sure mallets would love to play on the white keys all day), the brass guys (Bb is easier...no argument from ANY brass musucian, ever), or the GE Music person (How come this music I'm listening to sounds so differnt, so unique, so magical? Could it be the key of the music? Wow, they're playing in c# minor...and making it work!)

The nod should always go to the music books that traverse more keys, that look for differnt emotions other than "let's play another Bb major chord on this hit, since we know it will be easier to tune."

IT'S THE JUDGE'S JOB TO DISCERN SUCH LEVELS OF DIFFICULTY EVEN IF THE MASSES DON'T CARE. By extension, it's the staff's responsibility to "call out" the judge when the judge doesn't notice. (and if Judge X consistently doesn't notice, then Judge X should be fired for incompetence.)

[BillH]

Why does a symphony traverse many keys? Why does a fugue traverse different keys? ANS: Because variety is good. Because more emotions can be worked, even if subconsciously for the masses. For those with sharp senses of hearing, the difference is huge, even with no musical training. There is a "sameness" built into Crown's writing (esp last year), even if it's akin to eating lots, and lots and lots of Ice Cream. I found myself thinking "Enough Already!" when lsitening to their book. (This year, F Major/d minro seems to be their favorite key.)

Finally, difficulty is part of the judging process. It's on the freakin' sheets, for cryin' out loud. It's the music judges' responsibility, whether that be perc guys (I'm sure mallets would love to play on the white keys all day), the brass guys (Bb is easier...no argument from ANY brass musucian, ever), or the GE Music person (How come this music I'm listening to sounds so differnt, so unique, so magical? Could it be the key of the music? Wow, they're playing in c# minor...and making it work!)

The nod should always go to the music books that traverse more keys, that look for differnt emotions other than "let's play another Bb major chord on this hit, since we know it will be easier to tune."

IT'S THE JUDGE'S JOB TO DISCERN SUCH LEVELS OF DIFFICULTY EVEN IF THE MASSES DON'T CARE. By extension, it's the staff's responsibility to "call out" the judge when the judge doesn't notice. (and if Judge X consistently doesn't notice, then Judge X should be fired for incompetence.)

Ah, maybe we are getting caught up in semantics here. Your response, to me, seems to reference more harmonic variety than keys, per se. I wholeheartedly agree that if the harmonic structure is simplistic it will certainly be easier to play than arrangements which make forays into secondary tonailties, or better yet, exhibit simultaneous contrasting tonal centers. If your point is that you felt Crown's 2008 book stayed too much to I - IV - V - I in B-flat, then I get you. It was just when you stated they played in B-flat too much to be considered Elite, I had to wonder why the Key (key signature) had anything to do with it. Certainly there are complex pieces which could be in B-flat, which cover enough harmonic variety to keep the musically discerning listener pleased.

Sorry for the off-topic sidebar folks. I hope to see SCV enter a period of long-standing top-level excellence. I don't really care how they place, as long as they are good enough to be in contention each year. I think staff continuity can provide that.

[Bruckner8]

Ah, maybe we are getting caught up in semantics here. Your response, to me, seems to reference more harmonic variety than keys, per se. I wholeheartedly agree that if the harmonic structure is simplistic it will certainly be easier to play than arrangements which make forays into secondary tonailties, or better yet, exhibit simultaneous contrasting tonal centers. If your point is that you felt Crown's 2008 book stayed too much to I - IV - V - I in B-flat, then I get you. It was just when you stated they played in B-flat too much to be considered Elite, I had to wonder why the Key (key signature) had anything to do with it. Certainly there are complex pieces which could be in B-flat, which cover enough harmonic variety to keep the musically discerning listener pleased.

Sorry for the off-topic sidebar folks. I hope to see SCV enter a period of long-standing top-level excellence. I don't really care how they place, as long as they are good enough to be in contention each year. I think staff continuity can provide that.

Right on. And they DID play in Bb too much to be considered Elite! But I like how someone else [you] brought up the simplistic chord structure/harmony element of that show as well. Kind of goes with the territory of their music selections, and this year will be no different.

To bring this back to SCV, think back to the 1999 show...I don't think the contras moved off of concert G the entire opener (maybe a tritone in the center of the mvt). EVERYTHING ELSE WAS INSANELY DIFFICULT. I think every major chord was used in there somewhere, in different voicings and inversions. Not all of them were in tune, either. But dayum, they went for it! And the licks in the horns, chimes, battery and mallets??? Holy crap! Not your run-of-the-mill diatonic scales at all!!!! I can't imagine modern Crown pulling that off, seriously.

Here's to hoping that SCV returns to that edge. Not many corps are there these days, and SCV is poised to do it again.

[drumcorpsfan4567]

Why does a symphony traverse many keys? Why does a fugue traverse different keys? ANS: Because variety is good. Because more emotions can be worked, even if subconsciously for the masses. For those with sharp senses of hearing, the difference is huge, even with no musical training. There is a "sameness" built into Crown's writing (esp last year), even if it's akin to eating lots, and lots and lots of Ice Cream.

Totally agree. It's not bad to play in Bb major but it gets annoying after a while (especially in 2007, I just could not get into William Tell in Bb major).