dbc03 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 When was the last time the top 3 had a corps that has never won a championship in it? 96? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rut-roh Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 When was the last time the top 3 had a corps that has never won a championship in it?96? Yes, but they had finished in the top 3 previously in 1994, 1993, 1991, 1989, 1979, 1978, and 1977, so it was not so much of a surprise to see them place that high before. When talking about first time members of the top 3, you'd have to go back to... - 1990 Star of Indiana - 1986 Cavaliers - 1982 Garfield Cadets There are more before that, but those are the three most recent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gellio Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) A long time ago, a very wise man (who is currently a prominent member of Crown's staff, ironically enough) once told me, "You are your placement." You can score a 99.9 and still finish in 2nd place, and that's all anyone will remember. Crown has never finished higher than 4th. Bluecoats have never finished higher than 4th. Bluecoats have, to the best of my knowledge, beaten every current DCI corps at least once in their history. Crown, to the best of my knowledge, has yet to accomplish that. Just throwing some more facts out there...Well then, by all means, lets end the season now and give them a medal! You and I both know starting better than ever out of the gate guarantees nothing. It's simple history being against them, that's all. No big deal. They can still finish in the top 3, it's just that in order for that to happen, someone will have to be left out. And historically speaking, recently anyway, it's a more difficult task for a corps who has never finished in the top 3 before to knock one of those mainstays out. Considering the track record of the corps usually at the top, would it surprise anyone here if Crown was absolutely magnificent this year, perhaps better than they've ever been, and still finished in 4th or 5th behind BD, Cavaliers, Cadets and/or Phantom? It wouldn't surprise me at all. Well, that very wise man sees things differently than I do. I don't think of corps in terms of placements, but in terms of years. I see a 7th place Bluecoats '07 corps that was superior to that 4th place '06 corps. When I want to jam to Bluecoats I turn to '01, '05 or '07 - those are the memorable shows (for me). Heck, I think the '05 was better than the '06 corps. You can throw statistics out all you want about who has beaten who - but don't forget....Bluecoats (and Crown) have never beaten BD, Cavies or Phantom at finals. Bluecoats beat BD once in their history, and Cavies once (in 20 years - 1988 to 2008, once in '07). That's nothing to brag about. I'm sorry, but '08 Crown was better in every fashion than Bluecoats '06. I'm not trying to diminish Bluecoats achievements - their '05 through '07 shows (esp '07) were great IMO. I was merely thwarting the poster who compared the two - '06 Bluecoats and '08 Crown are on different levels IMO. Of course we cannot guarantee what is going to happen and whom is going to finish where. I said my belief is that both Crown and Cadets will be top 3 this year. Of course, Phantom, BD, SCV, Cavies and perhaps Bluecoats will have something to say about it. However, it is also my belief that as a corps who was 1.3 out of first last year, they will be even better this year. That doesn't leave a lot of room for Crown to not make the top 3. You can't say a corps who's never been in the top 3 has it harder - that's false. Phantom cracked in in 2005 following the same method Crown has been following - constant improvement. Yes, we all know Phantom was in the top 3 many times in their history, but not a single member of that 2005 corps had ever placed in the top 3 before, much less been within a shot of the title. SCV had a similar bump up in 1997. Competitive Inertia is baloney - this Crown corps is no less competent than Garfield in '82, Cavies in '86, Madison in '88, Star in '90, SCV in '97 or Regiment in '05. None of those corps had anyone (who was not previously a member of another corps - well we had one member from '81 in our '88 corps) place in the top 3 prior to them breaking in/back in. Yes, I realize the competition is even tougher today. So, of course, it's possible Crown could be better than last year and finish 4th or 5th. But, it is just as possible that Crown could win this year, whether they have placed top 3 or not - they obviously have the goods this year. I just believe they will not be lower than 3rd. That is my opinion based on what I have seen and heard. Maybe I'll end up being right, maybe I'll be wrong. I've been both before. We'll see at the end of the season, but I think both Crown and Holy Name have the two best shows (inside and out, from top to bottom) of anyone I have heard/seen. Of course, I have not seen Phantom or Cavies, so who knows. And you are right, strong starts do not always equal strong finishes, but that usually applies in cases where a corps does not have a solid show to begin with - Crown does. A few tweeks are needed, but it is in great shape already. Edited June 24, 2009 by gellio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gellio Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) Yes, but they had finished in the top 3 previously in 1994, 1993, 1991, 1989, 1979, 1978, and 1977, so it was not so much of a surprise to see them place that high before.When talking about first time members of the top 3, you'd have to go back to... - 1990 Star of Indiana - 1986 Cavaliers - 1982 Garfield Cadets There are more before that, but those are the three most recent. I stand corrected - it was not a surprise at all to see Phantom place in the top 3. And, after 1989, I wasn't surprised one bit with Star placing in the top 3. I knew in '89 that Star had a turned a major corner on the way to becoming a contender. I was right. I have the same feeling with Crown last year. Edited June 24, 2009 by gellio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rut-roh Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Sorry, I disagree. 1996 was perhaps the biggest surprise in history. NO ONE thought Regiment was going to win until their performance was finished on finals night. No one! You missed my point. While most people would have been surprised if Phantom won BEFORE their performance that night, NOBODY would have been surprised if they finished in the top 3. Get it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gellio Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 You missed my point. While most people would have been surprised if Phantom won BEFORE their performance that night, NOBODY would have been surprised if they finished in the top 3. Get it? I did and I tried to edit before anyone saw it. Too late. I think we can at least agree that this is shaping up to be one hell of a year. I love SCV's show to death and it will be interesting to see where they end up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rut-roh Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I'm sorry, but '08 Crown was better in every fashion than Bluecoats '06. 4th place = 4th place You can't say a corps who's never been in the top 3 has it harder - that's false. No, that's neither true nor false. Since it HAS happened before, it is therefore your opinion that it will happen again this season with Crown. Fine. But it is also true that it hasn't happened in nearly TWENTY YEARS, so it is other peoples' opinion that it *might* happen but most likely won't. As I said, this is no big deal. We'll find out soon enough. It's all good...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gellio Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) 4th place = 4th placeNo, that's neither true nor false. Since it HAS happened before, it is therefore your opinion that it will happen again this season with Crown. Fine. But it is also true that it hasn't happened in nearly TWENTY YEARS, so it is other peoples' opinion that it *might* happen but most likely won't. As I said, this is no big deal. We'll find out soon enough. It's all good...... Well, that's where I thought processes differ, because it has happened within the last 20 years. It happened in 1997 and it happened in 2005. 1997 Santa Clara Vanguard (3rd place) 1996: 5th place (barely) 1995: 6th place 1994: 5th place 1993: 7th place 1992: 7th place 1991: 4th place 1990: 6th place 2005 Phantom Regiment (3rd place) 2004: 5th place 2003: 4th place (barely) 2002: 5th place (tie) 2001: 6th place 2000: 7th place 1999: 8th place 1998: 8th place In both cases, there is no way any member of those 1997 or 2005 corps had ever placed in the top 3. Heck, it's doubtful that anyone (maybe a few) involved with 1989 SCV or 1996 Regiment (last time either was in the top 3) was involved in the 1997 or 2005 corps. Your basing your argument on competitive inertia, which I just don't buy. Both corps above broke in after finishing 5th, after a long long hiatus from the top 3, with shows that were not on the level of '08 Crown. That's all I'm saying - I'm trying to argue against those discrediting Crown - they, IMO, have as good of a chance as anyone to win this year. Do I think they will? Probably not, but they have a chance. Edited June 24, 2009 by gellio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DcFr3aK Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Well, if anyone was hoping for Crown to pass the Cadets tonight, is disappointed! Both went up though, great scores for both Cream Teams! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Lugo Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 NOT TONIGHT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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