DaveDrum Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 1.Buccs2.Hurricanes 3.MBI 4.Empire Statesmen 5.Cabs 6.Briggs 7,Bush 8.Renegades 9.Corpsvets 10.Alliance 11.Crusaders 12.Music City Legend 13.Kilties :blink: :blink: :blink: I know it's a million years ago, and corps are spread all over the planet, but in my opinion, this "seeding" stuff does more harm than good. If it wasn't broke, it never should have been fixed. Corps are locked into a seeded or slotted position weeks ahead of the championship week and have no incentive to improve that position. This is what gives the front-runners like Bucs a big edge (not that they need one). I am of the opinion, and i'd like some feedback on this, that winners attract winners and the fact that the Bucs win, is what keeps them strong. Back in "THE DAY" all you knew for sure, was that you won last year so you were on last at the prelims. All member corps drew for position and non-member corps drew for all spots before them. The number 2 corps could be on in the prelims before the number 8 or 9 corps. Judges had to actually judge a corps rather than refer to their handy dandy seedings card to see how far up they were last week. (I'll take a real beating over that statement). I just feel that really hard work is ignored and changes for the better are sometimes un-rewarded. I'm not saying that the judges are not doing their jobs. What I am doing is keeping them honest. I can't have the Tick system back, but I can make the judges work a little harder. If i'm right, after this weekend, Bucs will remain the top seed with Hurcs and MBI slotted a distant second and Empire a very close 3rd. Renegades, Cabs and Bush fight it out for 5,6 and 7 and so on down the list. The seedings won't change next week either and so another year comes to an end. If i'm wrong, I apologize, but I do have the ability to voice my opinion. After 35 or 40 years, you'd be amazed how little things have actually changed. Let the screaming begin ! :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quegrawks Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) I just want to wish all corps competing this final weekend before Championships the best of luck and FUN out there this weekend. If you're not going out this weekend, but are going to DCA Championships, Best of luck and have fun next weekend! Edited August 28, 2009 by quegrawks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donincardona Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 :blink: :blink: :blink: I know it's a million years ago, and corps are spread all over the planet, but in my opinion, this "seeding" stuff does more harm than good. If it wasn't broke, it never should have been fixed. Corps are locked into a seeded or slotted position weeks ahead of the championship week and have no incentive to improve that position. This is what gives the front-runners like Bucs a big edge (not that they need one). I am of the opinion, and i'd like some feedback on this, that winners attract winners and the fact that the Bucs win, is what keeps them strong. Back in "THE DAY" all you knew for sure, was that you won last year so you were on last at the prelims. All member corps drew for position and non-member corps drew for all spots before them. The number 2 corps could be on in the prelims before the number 8 or 9 corps. Judges had to actually judge a corps rather than refer to their handy dandy seedings card to see how far up they were last week. (I'll take a real beating over that statement). I just feel that really hard work is ignored and changes for the better are sometimes un-rewarded. I'm not saying that the judges are not doing their jobs. What I am doing is keeping them honest. I can't have the Tick system back, but I can make the judges work a little harder. If i'm right, after this weekend, Bucs will remain the top seed with Hurcs and MBI slotted a distant second and Empire a very close 3rd. Renegades, Cabs and Bush fight it out for 5,6 and 7 and so on down the list. The seedings won't change next week either and so another year comes to an end. If i'm wrong, I apologize, but I do have the ability to voice my opinion. After 35 or 40 years, you'd be amazed how little things have actually changed. Let the screaming begin ! :blink: hi dave. i completly agree with all that you said. a certain person who i will not name but you can check back about a week slammed me for saying this. he accused me of saying DCA is corrupt which i never said. but yes when there are slots it's very easy to judge. if it were the old way it would be on the merits of the current week. bravo dave. i'm with ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabalumnidrummer Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I too agree with Dave on this. Seedings might be useful if this were a tournament where you had to advance through your bracket to reach the prelims and finals, but drum corps has never really been like that, except for our prelims/finals system. (Of course, DCI has instituted another layer via their 'quarterfinals,' really their 'prelims.') One of the most exciting aspects of national/world competition has always been the possibility that on any given day, a 'Corps D' could rise up and knock off 'Corps A, B and C' at a championship preliminary or final contest. It's one reason going to a nationals or to the DCA was always an exciting part of the season for us 'oldtimers.' There was always hope that anything could happen. I believe part of this had to do with the randomness of the draw for prelim positions, and I agree with others that the seeding system 'slots' corps too much. Movement up through the rankings is not impossible, but it is very, very difficult under this system. I can envision a blending somehow of the two systems that could work: If there were say, 18 prelim corps, then have three pools of six draw within their 'pool' based upon the seedings (sort of like the system used in some sports, like figure skating): Seeds 13-18, 7-12, 1-6. The more corps entered in prelims, the larger the pools, or perhaps expand to a fourth if the numbers allow. Thus, you'd still have your top-tier corps compete last, but subject to a random draw. The defending champ could still have the honor to compete last as a courtesy. I think this would make for a more exciting preliminary contest, and as others have suggested, make the judges 'work harder' to assess the performance of the day, rather than consider seed placements. Just the opinion of yet another dinosaur of the activity. It will probably never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucspyke Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I too agree with Dave on this. Seedings might be useful if this were a tournament where you had to advance through your bracket to reach the prelims and finals, but drum corps has never really been like that, except for our prelims/finals system. (Of course, DCI has instituted another layer via their 'quarterfinals,' really their 'prelims.') One of the most exciting aspects of national/world competition has always been the possibility that on any given day, a 'Corps D' could rise up and knock off 'Corps A, B and C' at a championship preliminary or final contest. It's one reason going to a nationals or to the DCA was always an exciting part of the season for us 'oldtimers.' There was always hope that anything could happen. I believe part of this had to do with the randomness of the draw for prelim positions, and I agree with others that the seeding system 'slots' corps too much. Movement up through the rankings is not impossible, but it is very, very difficult under this system. I can envision a blending somehow of the two systems that could work: If there were say, 18 prelim corps, then have three pools of six draw within their 'pool' based upon the seedings (sort of like the system used in some sports, like figure skating): Seeds 13-18, 7-12, 1-6. The more corps entered in prelims, the larger the pools, or perhaps expand to a fourth if the numbers allow. Thus, you'd still have your top-tier corps compete last, but subject to a random draw. The defending champ could still have the honor to compete last as a courtesy. I think this would make for a more exciting preliminary contest, and as others have suggested, make the judges 'work harder' to assess the performance of the day, rather than consider seed placements. Just the opinion of yet another dinosaur of the activity. It will probably never happen. If I'm not mistaken, the "pool/seeding" system you're speaking of is the way TOB does it with their High school marching band championships. they break them into groups of 5 or 10 and random draw determines their order of performance within their pool. Im not saying that I like or dislike this system, just throwin it out there that there are current instances in the marching and music activity where the pooling system is being used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 given the switches from prelims to finals last year, i'd say prelim seeding has no bearing on where you place at finals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morphy00 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 If I'm not mistaken, the "pool/seeding" system you're speaking of is the way TOB does it with their High school marching band championships. they break them into groups of 5 or 10 and random draw determines their order of performance within their pool. Im not saying that I like or dislike this system, just throwin it out there that there are current instances in the marching and music activity where the pooling system is being used. I'm pretty sure this is how DCI does the show order now too for I THINK everything up to Indy. You're in a pool based on your prior year finish and then random within that pool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPeashey Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) remember, we have 45 years of experience at this... we've figured out what works best via trial and error... everything you've suggested has already been tried... drawing within a block? been there done that... it works too, just not quite as well in a huge prelims... as for all the straight draw advocates... you haven't lived through all the years of screwups and huge changes from prelims to finals in Legion and VFW that caused... The whole idea is to get it right the first time based on the performance that day... Edited August 28, 2009 by TomPeashey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 YES!!! Last year ('08) in Scranton, PA. Empire WON the Crowd by far. Standing O's "During", and a "LONG" & "LOUD" one, after show was completed. And in '07, probably....even though the Bucs got a huge ovation in '07 at Finals, I'm not sure it topped the reception given the Empire Statesmen that night. In 2006, I thought the crowd favorite... based on the roaring standing "O" they received for their Finals performance.... was the Caballeros. Statesmen were great that night....but for whatever reason, it seemed they did not quite generate the audience reaction they normally do. My opinion, of course. Fran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 remember, we have 45 years of experience at this... I hear that. I will agree to disagree with the "blind draw" advocates. IMO, that system had its share of problems...one of them was judges, on occasion, "saving room" for a top contender who was on later in the performance bloc. In other words, sometimes a top contender drew an early start time... did a great performance.... but didn't quite get the score they might have deserved, because judges were leaving some room for other top contenders performing later in the lineup. Fran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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