DCP vs. Judges

[jjeffeory]

Honestly, I don't know how to answer that.

One thing is certain though, most of us wear "rose-colored glasses" when it comes to our favorite corps. That separates us from DCI judges.

I wonder... Does it really? I think judges are people too. They have their own preconceived notions about certain corps. Sometimes it is worse than others, but I think judges wear some colored glasses too.

[ShortAndFast]

I wonder... Does it really? I think judges are people too. They have their own preconceived notions about certain corps. Sometimes it is worse than others, but I think judges wear some colored glasses too.

I think that by and large, the judges do exactly what they are paid to do: rank and rate the performances they see according to the criteria on the sheets. Sure, some judges are better at than others. And some probably do have some biases towards certain types of designs or performance practices. Judges are human beings, and it's a very hard job. But more often than not, they get it right.

One of the best things I've learned as a DCI fan is that my enjoyment of a particular show doesn't need to have any relationship to the scores it earns. Some years I like the champion, some years not. Some years I think the show in 6th place is just brilliant, and it doesn't bug me that it wasn't clean enough or hard enough to compete for the title. It's fun to watch the "horse race" each year, and it's fun when I show I really like does well, but championships is just as enjoyable when I think the gold medal show is a total dud.

Edited July 21, 2009 by ShortAndFast

[do.it.up.]

I wonder... Does it really? I think judges are people too. They have their own preconceived notions about certain corps. Sometimes it is worse than others, but I think judges wear some colored glasses too.

I understand that judges are people. However, unlike many of us on DCP (and I guess you could say fans in general), they see both the positives and negatives in a show.

Are they bias? Sure. But concluding that they're equivalent to fans would be pretty absurd.

[David Hill]

BINGO!

COULDN'T AGREE MORE: One of the best things I've learned as a DCI fan is that my enjoyment of a particular show doesn't need to have any relationship to the scores it earns. Some years I like the champion, some years not. Some years I think the show in 6th place is just brilliant, and it doesn't bug me that it wasn't clean enough or hard enough to compete for the title. It's fun to watch the "horse race" each year, and it's fun when I show I really like does well, but championships is just as enjoyable when I think the gold medal show is a total dud.

Edited July 21, 2009 by David Hill

[BRASSO]

I think that by and large, the judges do exactly what they are paid to do: rank and rate the performances they see according to the criteria on the sheets. Sure, some judges are better at than others. And some probably do have some biases towards certain types of designs or performance practices. Judges are human beings, and it's a very hard job. But more often than not, they get it right.

One of the best things I've learned as a DCI fan is that my enjoyment of a particular show doesn't need to have any relationship to the scores it earns. Some years I like the champion, some years not. Some years I think the show in 6th place is just brilliant, and it doesn't bug me that it wasn't clean enough or hard enough to compete for the title. It's fun to watch the "horse race" each year, and it's fun when I show I really like does well, but championships is just as enjoyable when I think the gold medal show is a total dud.

If excellence in singing voice was the determining factor in enjoyment, Rock n' Roll would have died out around 1954.

If a judge judging voice had to judge voice proficiency and voice technical skills between a trained Opera singer and a veteran Rock n' Roll singer, there is no question who would be judged superior and would finish 1st in this head to head voice competition.

But as to the enjoyment factor, well that's an entirely different matter and is based upon one's personal tastes in comparing the two.

And likewise and not surprisingly, Drum Corps placements, scores and it's relationship to our personal enjoyment levels also tend to be completely unrelated.

Edited July 21, 2009 by BRASSO

[sodakphan]

I was spending some time this afternoon watching some of the videos on FanNetwork from San Antonio. As I was watching Phantoms show, I was blissfully listening to the music and rather enjoying myself when I remembered that they had dropped out of the top six and that I should be tempering my happiness.

Often the judges are put under a microscope for how they are placing corps (which I think is great sport), but I wonder how much we ourselves are influenced by the way shows are being perceived by the judging community. For example, what if Regiment's show was currently sitting in about 2nd or 3rd place? What if the judges thought the show was good? Would we be more likely to give it the benefit of the doubt and say that the theme IS working? Or, do we tend to be more critical because they have fallen down in their scores?

The reverse can be true. Are we influenced to think a given corps is superior because they are scoring better?

Just some random questions I was asking myself, and probably not worth creating a thread for, but it gave me something to do.

Granny, keep the interesting threads going! I'm a bashful rookie on DCP, and I want you to know I've been reading your prune juice-inspired work for a couple of years. The juice is obviously contributing to your wisdom and wit...and probably to your cardio-vascular health as you rush off to the...er, never mind.

Anyway, thanks for your kind words in the OP concerning Phantom's show. Your ears are still working great. Hopefully, the visual dimensions of the show will improve and your bifocal-assisted eyes will bring you added joy.

A big admirer,

sodakphan

[corpsband]

It's still true that you tend to look for evidence that supports your preconceptions. Whether those preconceptions go with or against the crowd.

It's called confirmation bias.

DCP is the spin-zone to end all spin-zones. While there are a some folks on here who can dispassionately talk about the the activity, most seem people just wanna spin the rhetoric to make their corps look (a) the best or (b) the victimized.

Here's the key to avoid confirmation bias: realize that there are VERY FEW PEOPLE HERE!! DCP does not represent consensus, majority, or anything resembling either. Its just a small group of fans who (for their own reasons) choose to chew the fat here in this saloon. So there's no 'crowd' to go along with here. It's entertainment pure and simple. Jump in and have fun.

That's not to say there aren't lots of experienced and well-informed folks posting here and that everything is fluff. There's some worthwhile reading here too. But it's the mostly the Jerry Springer show! Take it with a grain of chair throwing.

[BRASSO]

There is a way to be more sure.

You're at a show and you've seen all of the corps perform. Scores have yet to be announced. So in this little 15 min timespan you've, in your head, decided who you liked, didn't like etc. Does this change for you after scores are announced?

No. Oftentimes, I 'm out in the parking lot with others around the cooler at the car when the scores are being announced.. We saw the show, we know what we liked and did not like. The judges determine technical issues, placements and that sort of thing, which is cool. I'm amazed every year the numbers of fans that have left the stadium and are not around when the scores are announced. I believe that DCI has had corps doing standstill encores and playing familiar music as a result of the wait time and some people leaving in droves. The only people concerned about the scores and placements are those who arn't primarily interested in the entertainment to begin with, but have a vested interest in seeing their favorite corps does well in the scoring, which is fine. But that's not me, nor many of my friends. However, I will stick around for the scores at Championship week as these are the only scores that really matter and the only ones most people will remember in future years anyway. So no, the judges scores have zero influence on our enjoyment level one way or the other re. what we saw and heard from the Corps in their performance that night.

Edited July 21, 2009 by BRASSO

[jwillis35]

Great responses by all, and excellent post by the OP.

As humans we are naturally going to see things differently when it comes to something as complicated as a drum corps show. Our response to a show is largely conditional, and those conditions are variables, such as:

1. Favorite corps

2. style we enjoy

3. show design

4. excellence

5. fairness

6. competitive status and desire

7. what others think

8. the judging system and how the sheets are used and developed

9. individual judges

10. and more

Any number of these variables can be coupled, almost instantly, that might give us a reaction to a show. As someone said earlier, if a person tells us corps A is amazing, we are intrigued and tend to watch corps A with baited breath. In one way we are excited to see what they see, but we also wish to make up our own mind, and we may watch corps A looking for a weakness that perhaps our friend didn't see. The later is really true when corps A is not our favorite corps (no. 1).

When our favorite corps is not scoring well, our first inclination is to question that result. Check it, assess it, and then make our own observation. After all, we are rooting for them, win or not. If the corps in front of them has a remarkable design, at least as determined by the judges and even many fans, chances are we will question that show to some extent because we are competitive (no. 6) and we do want our corps to move up.

Inherently, I believe we recognize when a show is good, either from design or performance, or both, and I believe all DCPers know when a corps has the potential to score high and place well. Whether we come out and admit that is one thing, and how we couple the variables and then prioritize determines our stance.

Sometimes people may feel a corps, favorite or not, is not getting a fair shake by the judges, or that perhaps the system (sheets and their design) is not rewarding an otherwise really good corps.

One thing that my mother taught me many years ago, and that stays with me to this day, is that what we find entertaining isn't all natural, but that it can be educated and fortified through research and knowing what to look for. Of course, we all have natural inclinations, the things that just naturally make us say wow, or tap our toes, or clap our hands. That is certainly the natural part of the entertainment variable. The educated part is in learning the style, knowing what went into it, and learning the various skills needed to perform at that level.

Example: My mother and I went to a band night many moons ago. Most of the bands were average, with some being show bands, one was a scrambler band, a swing band, and a military style group. There was one group that was a quasi corps style-military show, and they were just excellent. On the way home I knew that the corps style group was my favorite, but I didn't know any of the music, the show theme was unfamiliar to me, and really my natural instincts were not wowed (something that would result in clapping, humming, or tapping my toes). Other bands played far more popular music, and some had show themes that were really fun. But that corps style band was what I remembered most and really did like. My mom then said to me, "remember, Jon, that excellence, in and of itself, is a form of entertainment."

Although many do not find the Blue Devils to be their favorite corps, and there have been many on this forum who routinely do not like the Devils, I do believe they see that excellence, and, even in some small way, they are entertained by it. Are they willing to go on record when a placement is on the line and their favorite corps, or a style they like, is competing head-on with BD? That's another argument. The Blue Devils have never been my favorite corps, but I never fail to be entertained by them, because I see exactly what it is they do, and boy do they do it well.

In other words, watching young men and women marching straight lines, demanding curves and floats, playing precisely and musically, and doing it so well...when I see this I am thrilled just by the maneuvers and the excellence in sound. That alone is an EXCITER, which is a reaction to the action. But I have this feeling that it is easy to suppress and "exciter" when other variables are coupled and prioritized. We can make ourselves believe what we want to, and this is one example of how that is done.

When variables overshadow reactions, those reactions are put aside. Think of the reaction as the "inner thought." This is the real impression one gets at first glance or after careful viewing. But many of us do not offer up that opinion. Sometimes because we want another viewing, and other times because we have already used the conditional variables, albeit unconsciously, and we have given ourselves a reason to doubt what we just witnessed.

Obviously I am dissecting it too much. Basically, we will believe what we want and our personal needs (as affected by conditional variables) will be our top priority. The judging is only one part, and most people do not pick a favorite based on judging. After all, only one can win, but they are all winners in a very true sense. But judging does have an effect on preference, especially when it comes to beating a competitor, choosing a style you like over one you do not, rooting for the corps that you think is being unfairly judged, and so on.

Being completely OBJECTIVE means ignoring conditional variables and leaning more heavily on REACTION (the exciters, performance excellence, what truly constitutes good design). And that reaction must be guided, educated, assessed, and continually upgraded. In this case reaction is both instant (first impression) and educated (knowing what to look for). That is the objective view.

I would like to think I can be objective in reviews, but I am sure it's more subjective because I know conditional variables are strong determinants. It's like the "Force," my favorites have to do well and that's that!! :-)

JW

Edited July 21, 2009 by jwillis35

[corpsband]

Can I thrown a chair now?