Cavalier Brass Ideology

[Perry S]

INDEED!!!! They are NOT at all "mutually exclusive". As per the "Eddie Green" reference preceding....yeah, I definitely "get" that. I taught number of programs under his "influence" while I was in TX. The "premise" was essentially that, in order to minimize exposure to error, the ensemble was relegated (as in futball) to "playing it safe" so that no mistakes would be made. Although it has proven to be a generally successful approach with novice players, and quite successful with various middle school groups in a state which is littered with his prodigies, it falls extremely short in terms of producing any actual great performers. There's a reason the the University of Houston "produced" scores of teachers, but seldom produced actual professional performing musicians. I wish I had the time to give the accounts of the groups I taught in TX who were essentially "leveled" and denounced by the "Greenies" and yet were somehow repeatedly selected to perform at MidWest, and had success at BOA etc., go figure. I'll take an ensemble willing to risk it all in order to "make music" and make a mistake or two vs. an ensemble who's only goal is to not make a mistake and only exhibit the "math" ANYTIME. (I've personally witnessed this particular methodology take really exceptional players and make them play "pretty good"). When's the last time any of you heard a professional orchestra not have a single error? Did this really effect your experience? Would you have preferred that they "played it safe"?

Not me.

[kickhaltsforlife]

INDEED!!!! They are NOT at all "mutually exclusive". As per the "Eddie Green" reference preceding....yeah, I definitely "get" that. I taught number of programs under his "influence" while I was in TX. The "premise" was essentially that, in order to minimize exposure to error, the ensemble was relegated (as in futball) to "playing it safe" so that no mistakes would be made. Although it has proven to be a generally successful approach with novice players, and quite successful with various middle school groups in a state which is littered with his prodigies, it falls extremely short in terms of producing any actual great performers. There's a reason the the University of Houston "produced" scores of teachers, but seldom produced actual professional performing musicians. I wish I had the time to give the accounts of the groups I taught in TX who were essentially "leveled" and denounced by the "Greenies" and yet were somehow repeatedly selected to perform at MidWest, and had success at BOA etc., go figure. I'll take an ensemble willing to risk it all in order to "make music" and make a mistake or two vs. an ensemble who's only goal is to not make a mistake and only exhibit the "math" ANYTIME. (I've personally witnessed this particular methodology take really exceptional players and make them play "pretty good"). When's the last time any of you heard a professional orchestra not have a single error? Did this really effect your experience? Would you have preferred that they "played it safe"?

Not me.

I'm sorry, I needed to quote this again... it is so worthy. I want to put it in my sig...

[wdlover]

actually the Cavaliers don't tell the hornline members to play softer, they just tell them to never play beyond the best quality of sound one can make on the horn. Which in the case of marching instruments is rather limited.

Also the point about the Symphony Orchestra brass sections playing with edge is absolutely correct. Only objection to that is the people playing in the top symphony orchestras in the world are also the best brass players in the world. If Joe Alessi and Malcolm McNabb were playing in drum corps they would be able to achieve that. However, drum corps are made up of kids 15-22. No one in that age group has the experience or ability of a professional. So defending edgy drum corps by referencing the professionals is not entirely applicable.

[wdlover]

Not to mention that comment by bullethead is ridiculous. If you taught near Eddie Green and that's what you took out of the concept he developed, you clearly missed the boat, train, plane and any other form of transportation you could've gotten on. That, in no way what so ever, is the concept he developed.

[general_tsos_chicken2]

actually the Cavaliers don't tell the hornline members to play softer, they just tell them to never play beyond the best quality of sound one can make on the horn. Which in the case of marching instruments is rather limited.

Also the point about the Symphony Orchestra brass sections playing with edge is absolutely correct. Only objection to that is the people playing in the top symphony orchestras in the world are also the best brass players in the world. If Joe Alessi and Malcolm McNabb were playing in drum corps they would be able to achieve that. However, drum corps are made up of kids 15-22. No one in that age group has the experience or ability of a professional. So defending edgy drum corps by referencing the professionals is not entirely applicable.

yes, but the top corps' have very good musicians,many are music ed and performance majors, and others can be if they wanted to, not just a bunch of 15-22 kids, which is why I like them to reach the edge when it's called for. smaller less talented corps should be more careful

[supersop]

actually the Cavaliers don't tell the hornline members to play softer, they just tell them to never play beyond the best quality of sound one can make on the horn. Which in the case of marching instruments is rather limited.

OK I lied. I'm going to comment further.

1. Marching instruments dynamic range in relation to actual quality of sound is limited?

NO. If a staff is teaching a specific tone quality or sonority at all dynamic ranges, then the dynamic range will be limited. Cav's do just that. They try to sound exactly the same all the time no matter how loud or soft. There are rare occassions where they will throw in a "white noise" effect which is heavily assisted by suspended cymbals.

TRUTH. Even Bb instruments have a huge range of dynamics to work with. The key element that has been lost in the drum corps pedagogy for most instructors is the process to finding all dynamic limits and then perfecting them. After those limits are found, there is a process of refinement which takes about a month. I'm not telling any secrets so I'll shut up on that point ... but I can tell you the few brass programs who do still "GET IT" are a short list.

1. PR

2. Cadets (although they do not refine those limits anymore)

3. BD

4. Crown (although I don't think they take it to the extreme)

One hint ....... first destroy .... second heal .... 3rd refine. That's old school, and few do it anymore.

Cavies in NO WAY subscribe to this method. They in no way sound like a line would at the end of the season who practices this method. End result is a pretty hornline that often sounds a tag "light". Great sound quality but no umph and at times can sound very very thin at lower dynamics or even at mp ................... errrrrr they're MF.

Further, on the math point. Let's say Cavies have a "hit" on F major. They'll keep the baris at mid range and maybe pop 2 of the leads on a high Bb. Same will be done with the sops only 2 of the leads will play a double F concert rather than stacking the 20 trumpets on G, Bnat, D, double G all above the staff. This would bury all other voices due to the higher frequency. If they did this, all other players would have to play twice as loud in order to balance. So mathematically, they don't need that many players in the upper range in order to achieve the balance that they want .......... = boring and pretty.

Give me 40 guys and 2 months of hardcore training and they would bury that hornline ... maybe with a couple of mistakes but I would GLADLY take it.

[TheClutch]

I was prepared to be disappointed with Cavies hornline volume this year after '08, but to be honest I thought they brought the heat much more this year than last. No complaints here.

Me too. In early season tour I was crushed when I heard the volume (SO SOFT), but then about the time we got to georgia or murfreesboro i heard them again and they had upped their dynamics quite a bit.

Does every thread about the Cavaliers turn into people whining about the volume instead of enjoying the show?

[supersop]

Does every thread about the Cavaliers turn into people whining about the volume instead of enjoying the show?

If I can't hear it over the pit and the kid making paper airplanes 20 rows behind me .... I'm not going to enjoy the show.

[Mello Dude]

OK I lied. I'm going to comment further.

1. Marching instruments dynamic range in relation to actual quality of sound is limited?

NO. If a staff is teaching a specific tone quality or sonority at all dynamic ranges, then the dynamic range will be limited. Cav's do just that. They try to sound exactly the same all the time no matter how loud or soft. There are rare occassions where they will throw in a "white noise" effect which is heavily assisted by suspended cymbals.

TRUTH. Even Bb instruments have a huge range of dynamics to work with. The key element that has been lost in the drum corps pedagogy for most instructors is the process to finding all dynamic limits and then perfecting them. After those limits are found, there is a process of refinement which takes about a month. I'm not telling any secrets so I'll shut up on that point ... but I can tell you the few brass programs who do still "GET IT" are a short list.

1. PR

2. Cadets (although they do not refine those limits anymore)

3. BD

4. Crown (although I don't think they take it to the extreme)

One hint ....... first destroy .... second heal .... 3rd refine. That's old school, and few do it anymore.

Cavies in NO WAY subscribe to this method. They in no way sound like a line would at the end of the season who practices this method. End result is a pretty hornline that often sounds a tag "light". Great sound quality but no umph and at times can sound very very thin at lower dynamics or even at mp ................... errrrrr they're MF.

Further, on the math point. Let's say Cavies have a "hit" on F major. They'll keep the baris at mid range and maybe pop 2 of the leads on a high Bb. Same will be done with the sops only 2 of the leads will play a double F concert rather than stacking the 20 trumpets on G, Bnat, D, double G all above the staff. This would bury all other voices due to the higher frequency. If they did this, all other players would have to play twice as loud in order to balance. So mathematically, they don't need that many players in the upper range in order to achieve the balance that they want .......... = boring and pretty.

Give me 40 guys and 2 months of hardcore training and they would bury that hornline ... maybe with a couple of mistakes but I would GLADLY take it.

Yep, if you never push beyond your capabilities in rehearsal you will never achieve a loud capability. I NEVER rehearsed playing loud as much as in 89 PR or when I was playing lead trumpet in an orchestra..but you have to push it in order to achieve it.

[TheClutch]

If I can't hear it over the pit and the kid making paper airplanes 20 rows behind me .... I'm not going to enjoy the show.

Good thing the pit kicks some butt :)

no kidding, i hear them fine, and hear technical parts. just listen to the show...yes they play some donuts. great. haha