BD's 08 perc score

[Swine]

As a judge, it is difficult to avoid certain situations, especially when a large number of groups "fit in" to the criteria described on the sheets. (For example, '87 Cadets may have been given a perfect score, but many people that I know who were involved there will say that '88 was actually better.)

What situation was avoided? Cadets were simply ranked AT LEAST 0.3/0.2/0.3 (Field/Ensemble/GE) better than SCV in finals. BD was then ranked 0.4/0.6/0.8 below Cadets (with easily their worst show since 1974). According to the 1987 recap book, only 3 times did a judge not have Garfield 1st on his sheet. Ironically, one of those times was 8/6, and the judge was the same fella who gave them a 10 on the field in finals. I met T. Nicholeris once and made a passing comment about "that night." He chuckled, looked me square in the eyes and said, "Man, that was something. I'd do it the same today." I wonder if Bill Doyle would, too. I think that was the first time all year Cadets beat SCV in Brass Ensemble. Does that make it wrong? And check out the really odd GE Visual numbers from semis to finals. Looks like a completely different year. If both guys judged the same night (like GE is done now), one would be hanged out to dry. Wait... turns out one was.

In 1988, Scott Koter judged BOTH semis and finals (weird year-- the finals judges were picked out of a hat): In semis, he gave Cadets a 14.8 (out of 15) with TEN corps yet to perform. The next night, they went on last. He gave SCV a 14.8 and (only) gave Cadets a 14.9. On the tape (it's on youtube), halfway through, he says, "Cadets, I have yet to hear an error." I draw one of 3 conclusions: 1) they were JUST 0.1 better than SCV; 2) if they were AT LEAST 0.2 better, no matter- he doesn't give maximum numbers; 3) they tied in his mind, but he does not award indecision. Oops. #3 is out. He had a tie for 3rd. Interesting here: comparing corps w/ semis&finals, Koter kept 5 corps in the same spots; 7 moved but not more than 2 drum placements, and Cadets won both shows. I'd love to know how he made that decision. Plus, I wonder how many guys in the snare line marched both 1987 and 1988. And which was really better?

Mr. Koter? Are you on this board?

Edited September 6, 2009 by Swine

[Lance]

Anything that allowed BD to come out on top anywhere is obviously a conspiracy.

[MalletMusic]

[84BDsop]

BTW....you had 2 AWESOME programs for your top 12 years!!!

[CaviesFan1]

i was wondering the same thing myself.

that is, until I listened to the recording.

i must say, it was much worse than I thought it would be. To be quite honest they were not clean in some very exposed moments (drum solo... yikes). Listening to that alone makes me wonder how they managed to ever be scoring higher.

I guess it was just a rough performance? I don't know I wasn't on the line. But clarity was an issue for sure.

[08ThunderBass5]

I didn't read all of the posts on this thread so let me know if someone already brought this up.

BD tends to tune their drums lower and "thicker" meaning they aren't as poppy and precise sounding as a lot of lines. What this does is it covers up a lot of dirt in their rolls and such so to a non-percussion ear it sounds really cool and pretty clean! But the percussionists in the audience often sit there and shake their heads. Now; I'm not sure how they have always gotten away with this (with the judges) for so many years but I'm guessing that in 2008 the judge saw through it because I was in the stadium finals night in 2008 and BD was in fact pretty dirty for finals night. Anyway, I know there's some controversial stuff in this post; its just my opinion and some info; don't hate me too much for it :D

[dcsnare93]

I didn't read all of the posts on this thread so let me know if someone already brought this up.

BD tends to tune their drums lower and "thicker" meaning they aren't as poppy and precise sounding as a lot of lines. What this does is it covers up a lot of dirt in their rolls and such so to a non-percussion ear it sounds really cool and pretty clean! But the percussionists in the audience often sit there and shake their heads. Now; I'm not sure how they have always gotten away with this (with the judges) for so many years but I'm guessing that in 2008 the judge saw through it because I was in the stadium finals night in 2008 and BD was in fact pretty dirty for finals night. Anyway, I know there's some controversial stuff in this post; its just my opinion and some info; don't hate me too much for it :D

I'll agree, they were dirty finals night, and thought they scored about right. But, to say they've gotten away with dirty lines year in and year out due to the way they tune -- nope.

Edited September 7, 2009 by dcsnare93

[Gaddabout]

I find the issue of dirty lines a bit hairy, personally. I'm on the field and I hear pure-as-snow clarity; you're 150 yards away and you hear mud. The reality is virtually every line starting at, say, 15 on down is dang near perfect come finals week. Mistakes are so nuanced that it requires some serious training to hear the ticks and misses. After awhile I think people just start hearing what they want to hear. And who is anyone else to disagree? You say you hear dirt and you have strong convictions about it, there's no debating it. We could replay it and listen to it together and we'll maintain the same impressions.

I've always felt in the absence of the tick system, percussion judges are as influenced by the overall corps performance as they are the battery's or the pit's. The music can sweep them up or bore them to tears, and it impacts their scoring. I think this is especially true if a pursuing corps has a particularly strong and emotional performance ... the next corps to follow is probably going to take minor beating whether they deserve it or not. I think BD '08 is probably a decent argument for a return to two percussion judges. That pit's performance deserved a dedicated ear, IMO, and whatever issues that battery had didn't stick out to me worthy of the drop they had in scoring.

[big old drummer man]

They were dirty.

[Perc_Instructor]

That pit's performance deserved a dedicated ear, IMO, and whatever issues that battery had didn't stick out to me worthy of the drop they had in scoring.

I agree with your position that a second drum judge should be brought back for major shows. Though I'm very curious as to how you throw out the idea of whatever issues they had didn't stick out to you and that the pit somehow made up for the lack of clarity in the battery? Dirt is dirt and I love listening to the BD '08 show while going for a run, but the snare line played way too many notes fat. Especially when compared to the groups around them that night.