Probably beat to death....

[Bill L.]

Well I joined the Madison Scouts when I did because after having been in another DCI finalist corps prior to joining Madison that did have girls, I KNEW that those pesky girls were nothing but trouble. None of them had any real talent like a man does, and all they really did was hold us back. So I made a conscious effort to go someplace that embraces the idea of preventing women from joining their ranks for those very same reasons that I list here. Imagine how thrilled I was to go to my first practice and discover that they held secret "we hate girls" meetings at the end of every practice, and hung a "Girls Not Allowed" sign on the door when practice started. And when I finally got my secret "Guys Rule and Girls Don't" handshake down, I knew I was in the corps for all the right reasons.

I knew there might be trouble when so many girls were lined up outside the practice site with signs yelling at us that we discriminate against them, and we better let them join "or else." But we all just ran to the mens room bathrooms and practiced in there so no girls could ever, ever come in.

My mom was so proud of me. And my sisters, too. And I still maintain my "Girls aren't good enough" attitude to my boss as well, who happens to be a no talent unmotivated woman, who runs one of the busiest airline handling companies at O'Hare International Airport.

Geno, I seem to remember alot of girls around in both corps we were in !

[vferrera]

Sam, you missed my point entirely. I'll try to rephrase. People who argue that women should be allowed to march in certain DCI corps are basically holding the corps to the same legal standard as a public institution. Corps are not public institutions, and if they were, there are other excluded groups that I think would have a stronger legal case. I'm pretty sure that age restrictions would have to go, and that every corps would have to make better accommodations for the handicapped.

Ask yourself this question: if DCI were public, which corps would NOT have to change some aspect of the way they operate? I think the answer is none. I believe that all corps would have to make some changes. Therefore, I believe that all corps currently engage in some form of discrimination.

Try not to get too worked up about who's right and who's wrong. It's just a discussion.

[Newseditor44]

Because girls are icky and have kooties. Boys don't like kooties (this according to my 7-year old is a good enough reason).

[84BDsop]

Sam, you missed my point entirely. I'll try to rephrase. People who argue that women should be allowed to march in certain DCI corps are basically holding the corps to the same legal standard as a public institution. Corps are not public institutions, and if they were, there are other excluded groups that I think would have a stronger legal case. I'm pretty sure that age restrictions would have to go, and that every corps would have to make better accommodations for the handicapped.

Ask yourself this question: if DCI were public, which corps would NOT have to change some aspect of the way they operate? I think the answer is none. I believe that all corps would have to make some changes. Therefore, I believe that all corps currently engage in some form of discrimination.

Try not to get too worked up about who's right and who's wrong. It's just a discussion.

You made the claim that ALL corps discriminated against the handicapped...I and others felt that was worth proving you wrong. Don't make such claims against all corps when it's been wrong for years.

[vferrera]

You made the claim that ALL corps discriminated against the handicapped...I and others felt that was worth proving you wrong. Don't make such claims against all corps when it's been wrong for years.

I made that claim that all corps discriminate against SOME handicapped.

You asserted that SOME corps have accommodated SOME handicapped.

Your assertion does not in any way refute my claim. They can both be true.

[azwethinkweizm]

Ok, I'd like to chime in with the legal reasoning:

In Boy Scouts v. Dale, the Supreme Court ruled that the Boy Scouts could discriminate against Dale (for being a homosexual) because they were a private organization and hiring a gay scoutmaster would go against their mission statement. Although it is outright discrimination, it is, but its constitutional.

Sexual orientation is not illegal to discriminate against so your eluding to something false. What if Dale was in a wheelchair?

[bawker]

Sexual orientation is not illegal to discriminate against so your eluding to something false. What if Dale was in a wheelchair?

. . .well, if the Scout charter said "no handicapped", he couldn't join.

Private organization; their rules.

[vferrera]

Several other Corps in the Madison area? Like who?

The only other Corps in Madison were the Madison Junior Scouts (run by the Madison Scouts)

and the Capitolaires.

Capitolaires and Madison Jr. Scouts were merged to form Capital Sound, which then became part of the MDBCA.

[CasualFan]

ALL?? You are proven wrong by the deaf soprano in 82 BD, the deaf drummer who has posted here within the last year, Barbara Maroney and her missing left forearm in Garfield, the very sight-impaired tenor in 07 BD, CourtofHonorMember who is blind and still plays in the pit, and the Oregon Crusader from 07 was was in the wheelchair..and with a physical impairment that would leave most people in a crying heap.

ALL corps most certainly do NOT discriminate against the handicapped.

You ARE aware that many of these people marched BEFORE the ADA was passed in 1990, right? There have obviously been more instances of someone with a disability being able to participate in a meaningful manner than I was aware of (and many others, I suspect. Nor, I think, were those who came after 1990 included because of the threat of a lawsuit....sometimes people DO do the right thing without being coerced.

I remember asking about the Oregon Crusaders kid after finals in 07...if either the corps took a penalty for him (and his instrument) or if DCI granted a waiver due to his condition...in either case, I doubt the ADA was a factor....not when he was a soloist (and a good one, too)

Trotting out the ADA is not as supportive an argument as you make it out to be....I have yet to see a corps tell a kid he/she could not march purely because of a physical condition. Not being able to physically do a jazz run with the rest of the horns yes, because that's a performance requirement, but not being cut for an artificial leg in a small corps with slow and easy drill. If anything, I could see such a corps doing what it could to accommodate such a member.

Happens sometimes in Sr corps, too. In 05, I had a lot of drill in the 2nd half of the show next to MiniSopGuy...who was not exactly svelte. I commented to him during one rehearsal that I enjoyed not having to move so much....I think his response was along the lines of "that's what happens when you march next to the drill writer!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_wit...ies_Act_of_1990

Of the 5 major areas covered by the ADA, only Title V comes remotely close to the discrimination you claim "And they all discriminate against the handicapped", which has been proven false with respect to several corps at all levels, up to, and including, multiple-time World Class ring winners....and even then it doesn't apply, as that title covers protection against retaliation....NOT protection for a kid who wants to march and can't do drill because he's missing a leg.

Sorry, Vince.....but you're flat out wrong here.

He auditioned for BD originally, received a perfect music score, but was denied a position with BD simply because he could not march. I'm curious, in what way did his instrument not meet DCI requirements?

[84BDsop]

He auditioned for BD originally, received a perfect music score, but was denied a position with BD simply because he could not march. I'm curious, in what way did his instrument not meet DCI requirements?

It was a concert bari or euph, and the valves were moved by actuators triggered by him...his disability kept him from moving the valves in the same manner you or I would...it also kept him from holding a marching horn, thus the concert one was used.

I didn't know about the BD connection...I know he played the National Anthem at Precision West in 07, tho. The fact that he went for BD shows how tough he was....he took what he had and ran with it as far as he could. Had he been able to march, I have no doubt he would've done great at BD....and Crusaders should be commended for not only giving him a place to perform, but making him far more than a footnote or sideshow.