The tick system from BITD

[INSIDETHEFORTY]

OK.... yes there was some great, really difficult licks being played in the 70s.... but was it perfectly clean? How many ticks did it get when there was slight timing problems?

But really, when talking about difficulty, I was more referring to visual aspects of modern drum corps.... yes I know they aren't as clean as groups in the 70s, but how could you possibly get a group of 80 people to jazz run at a 4 to 5 step size at 190 bpm and it be anywhere near as clean as going 8 to 5 at 120 bpm? You can't. And let me tell you than I find what today's corps do visually 100 times more entertaining than what corps did visually in the 70s.... not trying to insult them.... that's just the way it is to me.

Anyway.... there is no way that anyone could convince me that the tick system being abolished after 1983 has no relation to the drastic change in show design through the mid-80s. I don't know exactly which one affected the other more... but they were definitely related. So one could easily say that with the tick system still in place throughout the 80s and beyond, drum corps would not have evolved as rapidly as it did, right? Maybe it would have changed, but not as much, right?

I think we have the build-up system to "thank" for the rapid "modernization" of drum corps as much as anything. And if this "modernization" had not happened, myself, along with many others, would not have become die-hard fans of this great activity.

I have really been blessedto have had the opportunity to witness hundreds, maybe even thousands of drum corps performances in my lifetime. Still, I was, and continue to be, amazed at the difficulty, precision, and the excitement generated, night after night by drum corps! In the late '60's, drum corps gave me goosebumps! In the '70''s, drumcorps made me feel "complete". In the '80's, drum corps helped me to visualize a brighter future. In the '90's, drum corps caused me to reflect. In the first decade of the 21st century, drum corps helped me to see clearly. Now that we are entering the second decade of the 21st century, I hope to be able to experience, enjoy, and rejoince in drum corps, as I have known and loved it!

Yours in Drum Corps,

Ron Gunn

[AlexL]

How many ticks does this get?

What if he is out of step for the entire show? A tick per step? Per 30 seconds of being out of step? Then what about the corps that had a guy out of step for only 20 seconds instead? Does that guy get the same number of ticks as the guy who was out of step for 30 seconds?

But then again, how much does this effect the build-up score? That could be pretty subjective as well.

Not saying i support the tick system, just turning that around the other way.

Edited January 16, 2010 by AlexL

[dbc03]

But then again, how much does this effect the build-up score? That could be pretty subjective as well.

Not saying i support the tick system, just turning that around the other way.

The build up system is certainly subjective. My point is that people tout the tick system as being objective. It is not

[AlexL]

The build up system is certainly subjective. My point is that people tout the tick system as being objective. It is not

Fair enough, and good point.

[garfield]

I have quoted the OP, because I want to ask the inverted question.

Myself, and others have tried to explain why we think the tick system does not work.... but it seems our explanations are never good enough.....

So please, tell me why you, or anyone else thinks the tick system (for some of the judges) works better than a build up. Do you think that corps are not being penalized properly for mistakes? Has there been any recent shows that would have drastically benefited/been hurt by the tick system? If a tick system were to be implemented in the near future, what effect, if any, would it have on show design/instructional techniques?

I would love to have this discussion.

Oooh, this is really good.

BTW, it's not that your explanations are not good enough at all. Like I said, if you can stomach a rehash, maybe there are some worthy new thoughts that might come from it. If you're convinced this is not possible then just troll or ignore this one.

But your question is excellent.

I visualize two sets of BU judges patting the corps on the back for attempting a difficult...something- design, spin, 32nd note run, whatever, if the attempt was not distracting from the overall effect of the performance. The third three on the field tick the attempt. If the six BU judges give them "credit" for the attempt (what is "credit" in BU? A point?) but the one execution judge take a tick for the attempt's execution, the net effect is accretive and score builds. No, you don't give 8 ticks, one for each member in the line, the line gets a tick. The phrase always ends and you judge the next phrase.

If the rifle line throws a difficult toss and the tick judge is not looking at the end of the line that blows it, wouldn't the press box not give credit for the blown attempt?

OK, so where would this be a benefit? Well another poster here suggested that Spartacus would have been ticked to death. That's a potential example. The over the top design and GE of that show (the story, the armadillo, the throat-cutting, Will) that vaulted that show to among my top two would be justified by a qualified judge on the field confirming that they executed it as well as it came across 50 yards up in the stands. (That I agreed with the judges on the '08 show is not the point.)

Stop. This great discussion has my mind spinning. Tear this up while I think...

Again, thanks. Great discussion.

[garfield]

How many ticks does this get?

What if he is out of step for the entire show? A tick per step? Per 30 seconds of being out of step? Then what about the corps that had a guy out of step for only 20 seconds instead? Does that guy get the same number of ticks as the guy who was out of step for 30 seconds?

It's one tick each time the judge finds him out of step. In reality the line is moving, or the phrase is changing, or the judge is moving (looking) away. No stopwatch involved. If the judge follows him the entire phrase and the MM stays out of step it's one tick. If the judge comes across him again in another phrase, another song, another 30 seconds and the MM is still out of step he ticks again. Shouldn't being out of step over multiple songs, phrases, time be ticked more than a single incident?

I can see where the randomness of the judges location on the field would be the limiting factor, but doesn't that same uncertainty require better execution across all lines, all the time? Isn't that part of the point of judging by numbers?

I've never believed that judges aren't capable of judging by ticks if the parameter definition of tick is established beforehand.

[perc2100]

It's one tick each time the judge finds him out of step. In reality the line is moving, or the phrase is changing, or the judge is moving (looking) away. No stopwatch involved. If the judge follows him the entire phrase and the MM stays out of step it's one tick. If the judge comes across him again in another phrase, another song, another 30 seconds and the MM is still out of step he ticks again. Shouldn't being out of step over multiple songs, phrases, time be ticked more than a single incident?

I can see where the randomness of the judges location on the field would be the limiting factor, but doesn't that same uncertainty require better execution across all lines, all the time? Isn't that part of the point of judging by numbers?

I've never believed that judges aren't capable of judging by ticks if the parameter definition of tick is established beforehand.

I think there are plenty of tick tapes handed out by judges, especially the closer you get to Finals. It's always frustrating to hear little but tick comments from judges, and very little about design, cohesion, or other qualifiers on the sheets. A member's or corps performance should be evaluated on so much more than just his ability to perform it perfectly.

[Jeff Ream]

Would somebody 'splain what was wrong with the judging system:

3 tick judges subtracting execution errors

3 accretive judges who gave credit for execution

3 accretive G.E. judges

...and why it wouldn't be a better system than today?

here's the issue

there was not set standard tick. yout tick could vary from my tick. susie's tick could vary greatly from both of our ticks.

so it was just as subjective as what we have now.

[Jeff Ream]

With full recognition that this topic has been beaten to death over time, and at the risk of continuing a thread that few care about...

A tick in execution would be a (for instance):

Blown attack or release

diddleflops that sound like buzz rolls

a flag out of time with the rest of the line

timing issues across the field

I could go on, of course.

Credit for difficulty was supposed to be credited by another three judges and might offset the negative ticks.

What am I missing and why wouldn't this work today?

your tolerance for what was a blown release or bad diddles could be different from mine.

hence the issue.

ticks isnt like compulsaries in figure skating. there was not set standard manual of what a tick was or to define the judges tolerance

a perfect example thats real.

in DCA one year in the 70's, team A tuned their drums really tight, team B kept them a little looser.

judge A thought team B was dirtier because of that....the sound had some inherent fuzziness to it...wasn't that they were dirty, but the tuning left him unsure. so when Judge A saw Team A and B together all summer, A always won.

judge B however was ok with Team B's tuning, and that it helped hide fuzz, meanwhile Team A, who cranked, left themselves open to every error being magnified due to tuning. So when Judge B saw them together all summer, he had Team B up.

[Jeff Ream]

Dude seriously? You need to go back and take a look at some of the charts from the 70's and 80's. I'll agree that stylistically there are great differences in the writing compared to today, but from a rudimentary difficulty standpoint (should clarify I'm talking mostly bout drumming here) there was plenty of corps not "playing it safe" because of the judging system. Blue Devils drum solo's in the 80's are as difficult to play as anything being put on the field today IMO, and there are lines too numerous to mention that were playing sick notes in a time where drum "solos" were actually features that lasted longer than 15 seconds.