The Challenge

[Richard]

You're taking my post out of context. I focused on the World Class groups because I've demonstrated that the rules changes are not necessary to be successful and competitive in Open Class (e.g. Spartans 2007) and in some cases have helped new corps start (e.g. Legends). I also excluded them because audiodb has said that "Open Class is different" when it comes to adopting the options provided by the new rules being required to be competitively successful.

[JimF-LowBari]

You're taking my post out of context. I focused on the World Class groups because I've demonstrated that the rules changes are not necessary to be successful and competitive in Open Class (e.g. Spartans 2007) and in some cases have helped new corps start (e.g. Legends). I also excluded them because audiodb has said that "Open Class is different" when it comes to adopting the options provided by the new rules being required to be competitively successful.

Wasn't going after your post in any way. I'm just trying to get some information on the non-WC portion od Junior corps. If anything, I'm trying to expand on what you posted. My background is I started with a Senior corps that was rebuilding so I was involved with non-top 12 Senior corps for a few years. As a result I'm very interested in the world outside of WC (DCI) or Class A (DCA).

Edit: Only quoted your post because that's what got me thinking about this...

Edited January 29, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[Richard]

Ok cool. The decline in Open Class corps over the past two years is a VERY interesting subject. I think the best way to do it would be on a case by case basis and trying to figure out what the contributing factors were for each corps rather than the alternative of trying to apply blanket statements. Sounds like another thread to me. I might just start compiling the list of Open Class corps to disappear since 2000 because it is a very interesting topic. My contention would be that these corps have declined due to 65% mismanagement, 15% lack of interest and 20% miscellaneous (unlucky breaks, bingo laws, directors not wanting to run the corps anymore, etc.) Those are just educated guesses based upon what I personally know about a handful of OC corps that went inactive.

[Jeff Ream]

I guess it continues to be me against the thread, despite the fact that I've made reasonable arguments and admitted when I was wrong (which I'm seeing from very few others engaged in this discussion). Anyway, here's my latest rebuttal:

Can you clarify this for me? I refuted your statement and you followed it up with something that is difficult to interpret. How do you respond to my statement that you can start an open class corps and make finals without all these "toys" everyone complains about? How about the statistics below…

Ok let's break this down. When you say that "making the drum corps operating model more expensive has caused us to lose more corps" I'm going to assume (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you're primarily talking about Bb instruments, electronics and the national touring model. I'm going to leave the national touring model alone for two reasons: it's more difficult to quantify, and the regional touring model is an option (of which Academy, Pacific Crest, Jersey Surf have recently all taken advantage – more about these corps later).

On to Bb instruments and electronics, which are no doubt notable expenses on your average drum corps financial statements. Any key brass was first made legal in 2000, amplification in 2004, electronic instruments in 2009 (if memory serves). You've already ceded that Open Class is a different game when it comes to 'keeping up with the Joneses', so let's analyze the World Class/Division I corps during that time period:

2000 – 19 Division I corps

2001 – 18 (Losing Tarheel Sun)

2002 – 19 (Gaining Cascades)

2003 – 23 (Gaining Pacific Crest, Capital Regiment, Mandarins and Magic – I think this influx had to do with the quarterfinals rules change but I'm not sure)

2004 – 24 (Gaining Esperanza)

2005 – 24 (No changes)

2006 – 23 (Losing Kiwanis and Troopers. Gaining Blue Stars)

2007 – 22 (Losing Capital Regiment, Magic and Esperanza. Gaining Academy. Troopers return)

2008 – 20 (Losing Southwind and Cascades)

2009 – 22 (Gaining Jersey Surf. Cascades return)

2010 – 23 (Gaining Teal Sound)

So, over this time period corps that folded and never returned (6) include Kiwanis, Capital Regiment, Magic, Esperanza, Southwind and Tarheel Sun.

Corps that moved up (10) include Cascades, Pacific Crest, Capital Regiment, Mandarins, Magic, Esperanza, Blue Stars, Academy, Jersey Surf and Teal Sound. We'll subtract the corps that aren't still around for fairness (Cap Reg, Magic, Esperanza) leaving us with 7 successful (so far) corps new to World Class in the 2000-2010 time period.

Corps that took time off and came back (2) include Troopers and Cascades. I did not include Capital Regiment because they came back in Open Class for one year and then folded again.

Now it's fine to say that under DCI's regime we went from 400 corps to 40. I won't dispute that. However, I'm going to call you out on blaming the recent rule changes for the current state of World Class. The numbers don't back up your conclusion. I'm not as familiar with pre-2000 DCI history, so I'm not sure how we went from 400 corps to 40, but I know it's not because of Bb horns and electronics. It's possible that the expense of Bb horns was a contributing factor to the loss of Kiwanis, Capital Regiment, Magic and Southwind (excluding Tarheel Sun because I know Cadets and BD were the only Bb lines in 2000). But how do you explain that more corps have been able to survive and grow to World Class level under the current rules than those that have not been able to? The variables here are numerous, but that's even more of a reason to not hold recent rule changes accountable for the current state of World Class.

If you want to talk about the touring model and whatever happened in the 80s and 90s to cause such a sharp decline in total drum corps, then let's do it. I'm actually quite curious about what happened during those years. But in the past decade, I'm not seeing how rule changes have affected the viability of World Class corps to the extent you claim they have.

You say that "IMO, those issues do not explain a dropoff as severe as we have experienced. We've gone from 400+ corps to 40+ on DCI's watch." The numbers above show that the recent rule changes haven't contributed to the total number of World Class corps the way you claim they have. If these rule changes are not the explanatory issues (and neither are the economy or societal changes), then what do you contend is the explanation for this drop-off?

Lastly, in a hypothetical world where the costs of running a drum corps were significantly reduced across the board, how many corps do you honestly think could be supported by the current interest of the other two M's you mention: members and management? 50? 75? 100? I'm curious as to what you think. Money excluded, I would guess there's enough interest to support MAYBE 60-75 corps competing in the DCI circuit. Just look at how difficult a time many Open Class groups have filling out their ranks. The interest just isn't there. This, more than any other factor, is why we no longer have the mythical '400' drum corps that allegedly once existed.

To answer your last question, I would attribute ~90% of the claimed 360 corps drop-off to societal change (and to a lesser extent economic changes) and ~10% to the increased operating expenses of modern corps.

two things:

I dont think the new toys led to losing 300+ corps. But it has made it harder for corps that don't get the sweet deals from manufacturers.

however the national touring model....yeah it hurts. gas keeps going up, food keeps going up, housing costs keep going up. as with many other rules changes, perception is reality...you want to be good, you go out all summer with the big boys. that's expensive

[Jeff Ream]

Ok cool. The decline in Open Class corps over the past two years is a VERY interesting subject. I think the best way to do it would be on a case by case basis and trying to figure out what the contributing factors were for each corps rather than the alternative of trying to apply blanket statements. Sounds like another thread to me. I might just start compiling the list of Open Class corps to disappear since 2000 because it is a very interesting topic. My contention would be that these corps have declined due to 65% mismanagement, 15% lack of interest and 20% miscellaneous (unlucky breaks, bingo laws, directors not wanting to run the corps anymore, etc.) Those are just educated guesses based upon what I personally know about a handful of OC corps that went inactive.

i think the lack of interest is higher, since DCI and the OC corps themselves can't market themselves out of a paper bag

[drumno5]

i missed those sorry. my bad!

Fair enough - I hope this means we can still be friends!

Fred O.

[audiodb]

Ok let’s break this down. When you say that “making the drum corps operating model more expensive has caused us to lose more corps” I’m going to assume (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that you’re primarily talking about Bb instruments, electronics and the national touring model.

There's more to it than that.

- Other equipment rule changes belong on the list, such as the two-piston bugle, three-piston bugle, allowance for stationary percussion and a pit area for them.

- "The national touring model" actually involves a plethora of policies, marketing approaches and transformative changes, the mention of which might re-spawn one of the many threads we've had on here about them. But I see I'm going to have to touch on them, especially in light of your next comment:

I’m going to leave the national touring model alone for two reasons: it’s more difficult to quantify, and the regional touring model is an option (of which Academy, Pacific Crest, Jersey Surf have recently all taken advantage – more about these corps later).

But the "regional touring option" of 2010 (or the local option, for that matter) is in much shorter supply than in past years. This is why I harp on the number of corps....because more corps make all those options more robust, and less expensive.

When we had 400 corps, there were several dozen circuits, and a great number of options for local, regional and national-level participation available to corps in many geographic areas. As the numbers eroded, it got so bad that there weren't enough corps left in some areas to maintain some of these circuits. In the 1970s, a Kansas corps could have a whole season in their home state, with seven weekends of contests; today, a Kansas corps (if there was one) would be hundreds of miles away from their nearest competition. Either they tour, or they only have one or two possible shows as the tour swings toward San Antonio. And how many kids will devote the time and money to march for just one or two shows in mid-July?

On to Bb instruments and electronics, which are no doubt notable expenses on your average drum corps financial statements. Any key brass was first made legal in 2000, amplification in 2004, electronic instruments in 2009 (if memory serves). You’ve already ceded that Open Class is a different game when it comes to ‘keeping up with the Joneses’, so let’s analyze the World Class/Division I corps during that time period:

(snip)

Oh, that was cute. I even fell for that briefly. But no, you can't analyze the health of the activity by looking only at world-class.

The dividing line between world-class and open-class is (speaking in historical terms) arbitrarily set by DCI's participation review committee and BOD. What was it before....the top 21? Top 25? Top 12? Number of "member corps"? Number of open-class prelim competitors? Number of touring corps?

Furthermore....while the competitive dynamic within open-class does not require as much "keeping up with the Joneses", the entire open-class model is doing just that - "keeping up with the Joneses" of world-class by focusing on an annual world championship and tours leading there, even setting up quarters/semis/finals with the same 17 and 12 corps cutoffs as world-class. And obviously, whatever growth world-class can claim is a result of open-class units moving up.

World-class does not exist in a vacuum.

Now it’s fine to say that under DCI’s regime we went from 400 corps to 40. I won’t dispute that. However, I’m going to call you out on blaming the recent rule changes for the current state of World Class. The numbers don’t back up your conclusion. I’m not as familiar with pre-2000 DCI history, so I’m not sure how we went from 400 corps to 40, but I know it’s not because of Bb horns and electronics.

It appears that you are confusing two separate remarks of mine, because I never claimed that Bb brass and/or A&E caused corps to fold prior to 2000.

It’s possible that the expense of Bb horns was a contributing factor to the loss of Kiwanis, Capital Regiment, Magic and Southwind (excluding Tarheel Sun because I know Cadets and BD were the only Bb lines in 2000). But how do you explain that more corps have been able to survive and grow to World Class level under the current rules than those that have not been able to?

Oh, that's easy. DCI has done some things right, you know....and this isn't the first time I've pointed them out.

1. The clinic programs DCI and their corps really ramped up starting around 1997 or so have had a tremendous impact on recruiting for world-class. Have you been to a DCI major event and seen one of these? They network with all the area band directors, who bring band kids in by the busload, and they spend a couple of hours on the field with a DCI corps demonstrating what they do, getting the kids to participate in drill basics, demystifying the whole process of how corps develop excellence by training ordinary kids to do extraordinary things.

2. The evaluation process DCI instituted starting about 10 years ago has become a constructive aid in strengthening the off-the-field side of individual corps. Rather than "pass/fail", evaluators help corps learn what they need to succeed. All those press releases from the past handful of evaluatees praising the DCI evaluation process and how it helped strengthen their financial/organizational health....it's not just hot air.

3. DCI took a major step away from the "haves" vs. "have-nots" mentality earlier this decade when the top-21 cutoff was abandoned, and all corps committed to the world-class tour began receiving the corresponding commitment of membership benefits from DCI.

4. Appearance fees were leveled across all of DCI world-class. Bonus payments may still reflect competitive placement to some degree, but I am told that the bottom line is a more level distribution of funds than before. Of course, I don't have the "facts" in the form of detailed numbers, so I can't "prove" this....but I believe there has been a change significant enough to be of tangible impact to viability for lower-placing world-class units.

If you want to talk about the touring model and whatever happened in the 80s and 90s to cause such a sharp decline in total drum corps, then let’s do it. I’m actually quite curious about what happened during those years. But in the past decade, I’m not seeing how rule changes have affected the viability of World Class corps to the extent you claim they have.

Again, world-class does not exist in a vacuum. That is nice, though, that the number of world-class corps has increased lately. I am quite sincere about this....especially since it appears that open-class will soon be nothing but the handful of surviving corps with five-year plans to make world-class.

You say that “IMO, those issues do not explain a dropoff as severe as we have experienced. We've gone from 400+ corps to 40+ on DCI's watch.” The numbers above show that the recent rule changes haven’t contributed to the total number of World Class corps the way you claim they have. If these rule changes are not the explanatory issues (and neither are the economy or societal changes), then what do you contend is the explanation for this drop-off?

All of the above. It's the combined effects of the societal/economic effects like those you cite, and choices of the activity's governing powers at different levels (i.e. individual corps directors as well as "DCI").

Lastly, in a hypothetical world where the costs of running a drum corps were significantly reduced across the board, how many corps do you honestly think could be supported by the current interest of the other two M’s you mention: members and management? 50? 75? 100? I’m curious as to what you think. Money excluded, I would guess there’s enough interest to support MAYBE 60-75 corps competing in the DCI circuit. Just look at how difficult a time many Open Class groups have filling out their ranks. The interest just isn’t there. This, more than any other factor, is why we no longer have the mythical ‘400’ drum corps that allegedly once existed.

My gut reaction is that we could have more like 150-200 junior corps in North America today, had the activity taken a different path. But I suspect you'll find that hard to imagine, because you speak of "interest" as you observe it today, after the erosive effects of 38 years of DCI elitism, where the top 12 25 21 23 corps have been promoted to the virtual exclusion of the other 388 375....who cares how many.

Had the activity's leaders foreseen how their policies would interact with the remainder of the activity, and had they instead chosen a path more supportive of local/regional operating models, and more fair about providing membership benefits in proportion to tour obligations....and then, promoted in alignment with those principles....we would quite possibly, IMO, still have viable local and regional operating models in sufficient quantity to support 150-200 corps. And we'd have less of an obsessive focus on top 12 25 21, or world-class, or world championships to the exclusion of all else, such that interest in local and regional corps would be greater.

It is interesting to note that amid the same set of societal/economic factors, and despite most of the aforementioned effects, the number of competing U.S. all-age corps was larger in 2009 than in 1972. Their demographics are younger, too, with many more DCI-eligible kids choosing the DCA option in recent years. Apparently, there is interest in drum corps outside of the full summer tour, perhaps even growing interest....it just isn't being directed solely to the DCI open-class model.

To answer your last question, I would attribute ~90% of the claimed 360 corps drop-off to societal change (and to a lesser extent economic changes) and ~10% to the increased operating expenses of modern corps.

So you do believe that societal change is the culprit behind about 90% of the attrition. Based on that, I have a few more questions for you:

1. Why have other team activities (youth soccer, for example) grown in participation over the same era?

2. Why have other arts programs (marching band, for example) grown in participation over the same era?

3. Considering your answers to #1 and #2, why/how should we accept such devastating attrition in the junior drum corps activity? Could none of these factors have been anticipated, and addressed in a different manner?

[Jeff Ream]

Fair enough - I hope this means we can still be friends!

Fred O.

I don't hate anyone, so you're safe. tho buying me a beverage can help

[JimF-LowBari]

It is interesting to note that amid the same set of societal/economic factors, and despite most of the aforementioned effects, the number of competing U.S. all-age corps was larger in 2009 than in 1972. Their demographics are younger, too, with many more DCI-eligible kids choosing the DCA option in recent years. Apparently, there is interest in drum corps outside of the full summer tour, perhaps even growing interest....it just isn't being directed solely to the DCI open-class model.

I'll have to disagree on part of this. The number of All-age corps competing at DCA has been larger the last few years than ever before. But from 1969-1978 there was also the Red Carpet Association operating in the Northeast. Most of these corps did not go to DCA Prelims as there was no way they would make evan an Associate membership. And like today at DCA there were corps that competed at DCA and/or RCA shows that did not go to the Championships. Can't get to the srcorps.com website to count but there were a lot more competing Sr corps in the Northeast in 1972. And the ones I can remember off the top of my head can be considered "local" corps that disbanded for many of the same reasons local Junior corps folded.

Good news is Senior... oops All-age corps is on the upswing outside of the Northeast. DCA hit the low point in the early 90s when 13 corps showed up for Prelims. After that they re-evaluated their "process" and started embracing the smaller corps under Class A. DCAs growth since then has mostly (IMO) come from the start up and growth of those smaller corps.

Edited January 29, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[Jeff Ream]

here's a question...since the death of DCM and DCE...how many of the corps that participated in both are still around today?