Putting my cards on the table

[j.morgus]

I'm thinking the age thing might have two other possible explanations. First, if you have a few (or one) 16 yr old marching with 140+ members anywhere from two to five years older, the younger member(s) are going to have a very hard time trying to live with the older, on tour for the entire summer...especially with teenagers, that age difference is light years apart and if everyone involved were even 10 years older, it wouldn't even be an issue. They are also likely to feel more alienated socially as well; how many 19-20 year olds are going to want to hang out with a 16 yr. old? Again, outside of drum corps they are living in different worlds. Second, the 16 yr old is still in high school and is going to have a much greater school commitment until almost (maybe even beyond) the start of tour. Here in the northeast, schools generally run into the third week in June-and if it has been a harsh winter with a lot of cancellations, those days get added on and it's not unheard to see schools around here with their last day being in the June 20's. That barely gives the 16 yr old enough time to get their bags packed and get to the corps before the bus leaves. College age kids generally are done with their classes by mid-May, have a week or two for their summer break, and then it's off to camps which then become tours. The 16 yr old is going to be WAY behind the rest of the corps at this point. On the other hand, I may be WAY off base here and these may be far more logical than the reality.

All of which points out the fact that the national touring "major league" model does not work very well for a "youth" activity. The demise of local corps and local competition circuits have made if very difficult for school aged kids to be involved in drum corps. This is true today of "open" class corps also.

BITD many corps had their group of "rook-outs" as well as a wide range of younger kids. This was possible because the majority of the corps' activity was conducted in or near the home town and did not require members to travel and be housed far from home for all rehearsals as well as the performance tour.

As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, it is often the younger folks who could benefit the most from the corps experience, and with the state of the activity they are mostly left out.

[Richard]

Go to the DCI Home Page. That's where I got my number. You and I almost agree. If I were a Corps Director and had a 15 or 16 year old and a 20 (rook-out) year old and all things being equal, the 20 year old wouldn't have a chance. Why? I've only got him for one year. It is also a thing about committment and dedication. If the younger person plays as well as the older, then that would tell me something.

The plain fact is that it does not work that way in drum corps today. The older kids will have preference over the younger, regardless of the level of talent. I am inherently suspicious of someone who would wait until a "rook-out" year to march for a corps, any corps. There has to be an ulterior motive in mid --- looks good on the resume sort of thing.

You don't have to agree with me but I've seen it in action.

I know people who have gotten cut from a top 12 corps because the corps wanted to take someone they could have in the line for 2-3 years over the rook-out. I don't think the person they took was 16, probably closer to 18, but the point remains.

That happened to me twice, all the staff was saying that I had one of the best hands and the best feet even better than college kids, how did I got good I practice like 5 hours straight and I'm not kidding about that, and I took lessons from a bluecoats alumni he prepared me well, and I was 14 in that time got cut, the last year I was 15 even better still got cut why? because I was 15!!!! even with great reviews, the guy who was a rook-out got the spot and he wasn't as good as far as I heard from staff. I know this would not make sense to anyone but is the true no kid who is 14-16 gets a fair shot to march Drum Corps

Maturity goes a long way in drum corps. I can tell you're still in high school just from the way you type and I'm sure others can as well. Having great hands and feet are huge contributing factors for getting a spot, but I'm sure the staff considers how well you'll be able to handle the rigors of a season and tour. Now that you've marched a full season and proven you can handle it, you're much more likely to get a more serious look, regardless of age.

Top 12 corps definitely take on 16 year olds, but likely not in abundance and with good reason. A corps of 16 year olds that is equally talented and with comparable staff will always underperform a corps of 20 year olds in the same situation for one reason: maturity. Maturity is a huge part of rehearsing effectively and efficiently, and it is probably more important than whatever baseline talent with which a corps starts a season.

[audiodb]

Second, the 16 yr old is still in high school and is going to have a much greater school commitment until almost (maybe even beyond) the start of tour. Here in the northeast, schools generally run into the third week in June-and if it has been a harsh winter with a lot of cancellations, those days get added on and it's not unheard to see schools around here with their last day being in the June 20's. That barely gives the 16 yr old enough time to get their bags packed and get to the corps before the bus leaves. College age kids generally are done with their classes by mid-May, have a week or two for their summer break, and then it's off to camps which then become tours. The 16 yr old is going to be WAY behind the rest of the corps at this point. On the other hand, I may be WAY off base here and these may be far more logical than the reality.

Yes. If you had a 16-year-old and a 20-year-old of equal talent/experience/attitude to choose from, and the 16-year-old was going to miss three weeks of all-days, who would you pick?

[audiodb]

That's a bit much isnt it? I mean the last few years have seen the re-emergance of corps to WC that were absent (in D1/D2) for close to 30 years, the addition of new corps to the ranks of WC.

Who would that be? Even if you're thinking Blue Stars, they were only out of world-class for 23 years (and then, only if you ignore their open prelim appearances they earned in 1987 and 1989, and quarterfinals in 1994, 1997 and 1999).

To say DCI is limping along is pretty inaccurate. Corps come and go. The reason there used to be a zillion corps many of which are no longer around has nothing to do with the changes to drum corps that have been voted in in the last 10 years.

No, there is a common thread there....it's called "elitism". But wow, some people don't want to admit even the possibility that when the top corps run the activity, they might establish rules and policies that work great for them, and not as great for the other corps. Regardless of whether rule changes of the past decade have a demonstrable death toll (yet), they demonstrate the same attitude that has prevailed throughout the DCI era - an era where the number of corps has dropped from the 400s to the 40s, and continues to drop.

[The Other Mike]

No, there is a common thread there....it's called "elitism". But wow, some people don't want to admit even the possibility that when the top corps run the activity, they might establish rules and policies that work great for them, and not as great for the other corps. Regardless of whether rule changes of the past decade have a demonstrable death toll (yet), they demonstrate the same attitude that has prevailed throughout the DCI era - an era where the number of corps has dropped from the 400s to the 40s, and continues to drop.

Thank you.

So few actually know there's an elephant in the room, much less speak of it.

[JimF-LowBari]

That's a bit much isnt it? I mean the last few years have seen the re-emergance of corps to WC that were absent (in D1/D2) for close to 30 years, the addition of new corps to the ranks of WC. To say DCI is limping along is pretty inaccurate. Corps come and go. The reason there used to be a zillion corps many of which are no longer around has nothing to do with the changes to drum corps that have been voted in in the last 10 years.

Are you looking at WC only or the Junior corps world as a whole?

What new corps in WC and OC have been created in the last 10 or so years that have stuck around? The new corps to WC that I can guess of have come from OC. The OC have some mainstay corps that have been around a while and being OC works for them. Other than that there is a mess with corps dropping out for a season or two... or three... On a whole I'd say OC is losing ground as some corps with stronger manager go to WC. I see corps coming and going but I don't see new corps staying.......

IMO some of the rules are hindering the creation of new corps.....

Edited February 3, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[Ed from Kansas]

There have been many interesting points of view in this thread and there seems to be an argument for the "elitist" corps. I personally do not agree with this but apparently many people do.

I believe that although the corps are abiding by the letter of the rules, in terms of age, they are not abiding by the spirit of the rules. Drum Corps will continue to decline and become more "elitist" until the entire activity wakes up and starts encouraging younger people to march. Rook-outs will not sustain the activity.

Many people do not like the Blue Devils, but their model is quite interesting and probably why they remain at the top from year to year. Ages: Blue Devils - 17-21: Blue Devils B: - 13-18; Blue Devils C: - 7-13. That organization is continually building replacements for their top corps. If more corps did this, many more young people would have a chance to have the drum corps experience. Until then, this argument will go on ad nauseum.

[soccerguy315]

Many people do not like the Blue Devils, but their model is quite interesting and probably why they remain at the top from year to year. Ages: Blue Devils - 17-21: Blue Devils B: - 13-18; Blue Devils C: - 7-13. That organization is continually building replacements for their top corps. If more corps did this, many more young people would have a chance to have the drum corps experience. Until then, this argument will go on ad nauseum.

most corps can barely keep their WC corps functional, much less make plans to add a feeder corps (or two). Blue Devils are obviously a top notch organization and are running things very well out there in California. They also probably bring in 10 times the money of some of the lower corps from their souvie booth at the regionals. But really, the top corps don't need their own feeder corps, because they already have 15 other WC corps that serve that purpose.

I am also under the impression that only a few (less than 5) people from BDB generally make the A corps every year, and most of their new members instead come from lower ranked WC corps. Someone closer to the situation can feel free to correct me on this.

Edited February 3, 2010 by soccerguy315

[BigBadMadMan]

There loss of feeder corps has been pretty disappointing and has happened just within the scope of my awareness of the activity. Who else here remembers the Phantom Regiment Cadets and Madison Junior Scouts, just to name a couple? Colt Cadets are still in place, and I appreciate their commitment to their feeder corps. If they somehow become a drain on the Colts, anyone think the Colt Cadets will still be around? Doubtful.

Edited February 3, 2010 by BigBadMadMan

[redteamer]

I have this fun thing that I do. I completely throw credibility out the window when people frequently misspell words or write with poor grammar. Is that fair? It might not be.

However, I get a lot more value out of discussion in threads littered with virtually unreadable posts.