Could the new pre-show rule lead to woodwinds?

[BRASSO]

well, i'd imagine bands have more, and here's why.

most bands compete at shows primarily close to home, making it easy for mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, aunt, uncle, brother, sister, 14th cousin 19 times removed etc to attend. Take away a big show for a circuit like their finals, and most parents can see their kids every weekend. And even where I teach, with finals usually less than 2 hours from home, we don't see all the parents at finals we see at local shows.

Now factor in the multitude of high schools and circuits out there...yeah overall bands will draw more people. But, you don't often see a lot of people who show up just to watch and have no ties, and those that do usually try to find ways to scam their way in.

In DCI, a kid's closest show to home may be an airplane ride away. With luck, the parents may get to see the kid 1/2 times, extended family less. local shows will have more causal fans than regionals or finals, but the family connection will be harder to maintain.

if we have a kid that marches, i know if I want to see the kid perform a lot, i'll be a volunteer, because otherwise, I can't just pick up every weekend and fly to wherever they are unless the mortgage gods really smile upon the business

competitions close to home,... where family, relatives, friends, local townspeople, civic leaders, etc get to see the local units perform each weekend, and keeping costs down for everyone.

What a wonderful concept.

Edited February 9, 2010 by BRASSO

[Richard]

my issue is if band became more innovative, then maybe it was time for drum corps to get some new designers.

But what is band became more "innovative" because there were fewer constraints put around the design process? I'm assuming your calling for DCI's designers to be innovative without requiring rule changes, which isn't unreasonable. But band designers have more instrumentation to work with, then naturally they'll be able to push the product in new directions with less effort than the DCI designers. I hope that made sense.

I understand this need to accept anything with a laisse faire attitude on whatever DCI decides to do or allow on the field. There' s apparently a wide spread acceptance of the " anything goes " position from what I'm gathering. And that's fine I suppose. I was just curious if this " anythng goes " position extends to literally ANYTHING in instrumentation. I mean, could DCI expect acceptance of( say) accordians as featured instruments ? Kazoos ? Sitars ? Harps ? What if DCI decided that woodwinds should become the featured instruments, and brass lines were cut down to 20 in total... as back up instrument acompaniments to the woodwinds ? Do the " anything goes" trusting and accepting fans have ANY line on instrumentation that would get their attention to ask.... " hey, wait up just a minute.... just where the heck are you going with this" ? or is this " anything goes " position on intrumentation DCI has adopted pretty much ok with everyone ? in other words, you're pretty content to just sit back and watch it all " evolve " before your very eyes ? ( or as some might posit... " disappear, right before your very eyes " ? )

I can see how I can come off as someone who is "anything goes" when it comes to drum corps instrumentation and I'd just like to clear up that I'm not. I'm not pro-amplification or pro-electronics and I'm certainly not pro-woodwinds. I'm just not anti-amps and anti-electronics, though I am anti-woodwinds. I usually try to present a counterpoint to most of the outcry on here. I don't think electronics and amplification are necessarily GOOD for the activity, but I don't think they're destroying it either.

I'm less worried than others about woodwinds in drum corps because, as a woodwind player, I can't imagine ANY corps having the resources to maintain a line of quality saxophones/clarintes/flutes/whatever through the rigors of a drum corps season. Woodwind instruments can barely survive a band season without needing to be realigned, not to mention upkeep costs like reeds which far exceed that of something like polish and valve oil. A sax player rehearsing as much as drum corps would reasonable blow through 2-4 reeds per day if they're looking to maintain their quality of sound. I just don't think it's logistically realistic so I'm not too worried, but that's not to say it won't happen. Trust me, I hope it doesn't.

EDIT: Also, the BoD must have some concept of the backlash that would occur and they should be VERY fearful of it. If a proponent of DCI like myself would be willing to walk away (or more likely, slide over to DCA fandom), then I think the support dropoff would be substantial enough that they would avoid doing something that dramatic. But time will tell.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Richard

[Richard]

competitions close to home,... where family, relatives, friends, local townspeople, civic leaders, etc get to see the local units perform each weekend, and keeping costs down for everyone.

What a wonderful concept.

It helps when bands have built-in show sponsors called school districts or music boosters. It would be awesome to have more local drum corps events, but (re)building the infrastructure of multiple local corps and show sponsors is a daunting task. Hopefully it's somewhere on DCI's radar.

[BRASSO]

But what is band became more "innovative" because there were fewer constraints put around the design process? I'm assuming your calling for DCI's designers to be innovative without requiring rule changes, which isn't unreasonable. But band designers have more instrumentation to work with, then naturally they'll be able to push the product in new directions with less effort than the DCI designers. I hope that made sense.

I can see how I can come off as someone who is "anything goes" when it comes to drum corps instrumentation and I'd just like to clear up that I'm not. I'm not pro-amplification or pro-electronics and I'm certainly not pro-woodwinds. I'm just not anti-amps and anti-electronics, though I am anti-woodwinds. I usually try to present a counterpoint to most of the outcry on here. I don't think electronics and amplification are necessarily GOOD for the activity, but I don't think they're destroying it either.

I'm less worried than others about woodwinds in drum corps because, as a woodwind player, I can't imagine ANY corps having the resources to maintain a line of quality saxophones/clarintes/flutes/whatever through the rigors of a drum corps season. Woodwind instruments can barely survive a band season without needing to be realigned, not to mention upkeep costs like reeds which far exceed that of something like polish and valve oil. A sax player rehearsing as much as drum corps would reasonable blow through 2-4 reeds per day if they're looking to maintain their quality of sound. I just don't think it's logistically realistic so I'm not too worried, but that's not to say it won't happen. Trust me, I hope it doesn't.

I understand better now where you're coming from.

Woodwinds are coming to on- the- field- competition DCI ( my opinion ). However, probably not for awhile, as they'll need to rejigger the judging captions. Most of the current music judges that judge DCI come from the brass or percussion side of things with their experience, knowledge, qualifications . Most would not be adequate at judging the woodwinds. So until DCI figures out how to judge woodwinds on the field, they'll go slowly with this in my opinion.

(I'm not sure what these current judge's qualifications are to judge the singing voice, electric guitars either... but that's for another day, another thread perhaps. )

Edited February 9, 2010 by BRASSO

[JimF-LowBari]

well, i'd imagine bands have more, and here's why. etc. etc. and etc....

Way I figured it too. But if we're just looking at raw numbers without any reasoning behind it then the response would be a lot different than your detailed etcs.

Also I forgot to put in the growth or at least continued strength of competative MBs over the last decade or so. Compared to the pain going on with DCI it appears the MB world really has its crap together.

Speaking locally... just amazed how much publicity (IOW Patriot News) gets generated every time one of the MB championships goes on. Never knew there were so many.

Edited February 9, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[Jeff Ream]

But what is band became more "innovative" because there were fewer constraints put around the design process? I'm assuming your calling for DCI's designers to be innovative without requiring rule changes, which isn't unreasonable. But band designers have more instrumentation to work with, then naturally they'll be able to push the product in new directions with less effort than the DCI designers. I hope that made sense.

maybe to a small degree it is......but, seeing a lot of band stuff as well as corps, i'm inclined to believe no, not really.

we keep being told that this is art. well, a true artist knows he has rules, and creates from there. the genius of drum corps shows past was they took music not written for this "artform" and made it work. now that, to me, is innovation and creativity. think SCV last summer...all those string parts spread out between the voices, especially mello and pit. THAT'S CREATIVE!

I can see how I can come off as someone who is "anything goes" when it comes to drum corps instrumentation and I'd just like to clear up that I'm not. I'm not pro-amplification or pro-electronics and I'm certainly not pro-woodwinds. I'm just not anti-amps and anti-electronics, though I am anti-woodwinds. I usually try to present a counterpoint to most of the outcry on here. I don't think electronics and amplification are necessarily GOOD for the activity, but I don't think they're destroying it either.

I am ok with amping if it's just the pit. despite how it was presented originally, we all know it was never to be just that. I however feel electronics are going to be bad. People will become more and more dependent on them, kind of like we see in WGI percussion now. Soon, it'll be like WGI...where you have to have it to get the show concept across....and IMO, too often, they actually hurt the product

I'm less worried than others about woodwinds in drum corps because, as a woodwind player, I can't imagine ANY corps having the resources to maintain a line of quality saxophones/clarintes/flutes/whatever through the rigors of a drum corps season. Woodwind instruments can barely survive a band season without needing to be realigned, not to mention upkeep costs like reeds which far exceed that of something like polish and valve oil. A sax player rehearsing as much as drum corps would reasonable blow through 2-4 reeds per day if they're looking to maintain their quality of sound. I just don't think it's logistically realistic so I'm not too worried, but that's not to say it won't happen. Trust me, I hope it doesn't.

I think a lot of us want to agree. Unfortunately, I think the cynics among even the most positive of us see it happening at some point in time.

EDIT: Also, the BoD must have some concept of the backlash that would occur and they should be VERY fearful of it. If a proponent of DCI like myself would be willing to walk away (or more likely, slide over to DCA fandom), then I think the support dropoff would be substantial enough that they would avoid doing something that dramatic. But time will tell.

At this point, I'm not sure to what to think about them, except for what knowledge I have first hand talking to a few of them and some stories told from some board meetings 2nd or 3rd hand. Needless to say, outside 2 of them, I can't say I feel really good about it

[audiodb]

But what is band became more "innovative" because there were fewer constraints put around the design process?

Oh, please. I try to avoid "innovation" discussions, but there is one thing I must point out.

Once upon a time, drum corps and competing HS marching bands roamed the continent in roughly equal numbers. Those are the days you refer to when citing drum corps as more "innovative". Now we have over 4,000 bands. That means for every junior corps, there are 100 competing marching bands. Of course there's more creativity and innovation to be found in a population 100 times the size of drum corps.

[Jeff Ream]

Way I figured it too. But if we're just looking at raw numbers without any reasoning behind it then the response would be a lot different than your detailed etcs.

Also I forgot to put in the growth or at least continued strength of competative MBs over the last decade or so. Compared to the pain going on with DCI it appears the MB world really has its crap together.

Speaking locally... just amazed how much publicity (IOW Patriot News) gets generated every time one of the MB championships goes on. Never knew there were so many.

that's because TOB and Cavalcade have cultivated relationships with the local press. With my involvement with TOB Chapter 6, I have the email addy to every local paper to funnel news to, and some respond, some don't.

the great thing is most people sent to cover the event are blown away by the kids work ethic. But man, do some of the shows confuse them

[Rimba47]

Think about the actual POTENTIAL of an “anything goes” and “non-judged” Preshow!!!!!!!

I think this is what makes the rule incredibly awesome! What if a designer wants to experiment with something he thinks is fantastic? (Whether it follows DCI current rules or not) Where can he "present" it in a way that it won't be judged, where he can take incredible risk, and try something creative? IN THE PRESHOW.

So if a corps wants to open with a small jazz ensemble with string bass, drum set, vibes, and a saxophone, it can! If the DCI community acts very negatively to the concept then it’s likely that corps won't do it again. But if people actually find it interesting and are "okay" with it then... what's the harm? The bottom line is that no one knows if something works or not until you actually try it.

But the Preshow can also be a chance to "bring back" all those aspects of drum corps that you older guys miss. I'm at a loss for a good example but what if a corps used the 5 minutes to go "old school drum corps" (if it somehow related to their show concept/ maybe a show idea based on the evolution of drum corps?) Maybe doing something like that would involve risk if it was during the ACTUAL show but since it’s in the preshow… well… “anything goes”. If the crowd really gets energized over this experiment then… we might see more of it in the future.

I mean, who gives a **** about woodwinds if you can think about all the other awesome stuff that drum corps can now dive into without worrying about score! All the risks they will now take musically and visually! The only thing the drum corps is performing for in the Preshow is simple Audience reaction! Its EXACTLY what most of you guys have been hoping for!

Think of the preshow as the experimental section of a corps show. You'll either hate what they do, love what they do, or be indifferent to it. But it’s a great opportunity for DCI to expand and grow in new ways that can attract new and old audience members. Who knows what Amazing/ Mind Blowing/ Creative things we will discover in the preshow that we wouldn't have otherwise...

I for one, am looking forward to the pre-shows more now than ever.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Rimba47

[Jeff Ream]

Think about the actual POTENTIAL of an "anything goes" and "non-judged" Preshow!!!!!!!

I think this is what makes the rule incredibly awesome! What if a designer wants to experiment with something he thinks is fantastic? (Whether it follows DCI current rules or not) Where can he "present" it in a way that it won't be judged, where he can take incredible risk, and try something creative? IN THE PRESHOW.

So if a corps wants to open with a small jazz ensemble with string bass, drum set, vibes, and a saxophone, it can! If the DCI community acts very negatively to the concept then it's likely that corps won't do it again. But if people actually find it interesting and are "okay" with it then... what's the harm? The bottom line is that no one knows if something works or not until you actually try it.

But the Preshow can also be a chance to "bring back" all those aspects of drum corps that you older guys miss. I'm at a loss for a good example but what if a corps used the 5 minutes to go "old school drum corps" (if it somehow related to their show concept/ maybe a show idea based on the evolution of drum corps?) Maybe doing something like that would involve risk if it was during the ACTUAL show but since it's in the preshow… well… "anything goes". If the crowd really gets energized over this experiment then… we might see more of it in the future.

I mean, who gives a **** about woodwinds if you can think about all the other awesome stuff that drum corps can now dive into without worrying about score! All the risks they will now take musically and visually! The only thing the drum corps is performing for in the Preshow is simple Audience reaction! Its EXACTLY what most of you guys have been hoping for!

Think of the preshow as the experimental section of a corps show. You'll either hate what they do, love what they do, or be indifferent to it. But it's a great opportunity for DCI to expand and grow in new ways that can attract new and old audience members. Who knows what Amazing/ Mind Blowing/ Creative things we will discover in the preshow that we wouldn't have otherwise...

I for one, am looking forward to the pre-shows more now than ever.

I'll gladly bet you $100 no corps will "look into the past" because the perception is that they must always be "pushing forward"

and not only that, I think the preshow is getting too much attention and it affects the actual parts of the show that counts. either lengthen the time of the show, or cut out the insanity, because eventually, some teams ( and yes i know you can legislate stupidity, if so DCI and Congress would have been in trouble many times)will end making preshow so out of control the actual judged part will suck.

or be like we saw a few cases of last year