Rimba47 Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Sorry, 2009 was NOTHING like a super competitive year. BD was undefeated all the way through. This was nothing like '91, which was mentioned before, or '90 when 5 or 6 corps had a legitimate shot at winning finals. I'm sure you're right! But I'm saying that the excitement of competition doesn't have to be for FIRST place but between corps that are close to each other. Maybe its because I was in one of the corps' mentioned that I thought it was super competitive! :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 I'm sure you're right! But I'm saying that the excitement of competition doesn't have to be for FIRST place but between corps that are close to each other. Maybe its because I was in one of the corps' mentioned that I thought it was super competitive! :P Well, that's not the point of the thread, but I have to agree with you. The battle for FIRST doesn't matter necessarily. I agree that 2009 was a good competitive year for 2-4, 7-9, & 12-13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 when some top corps have multiple staff changes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) Well, I know it happened in the past because I was there and experienced the season ('90), but I think you're correct in the current era things have been decided in advance. Even in 1990, by the time we got to the 2nd week of August, it became a 3, maybe 4 Corps horse race for the title. Phantom and SCV had challenged early in the seasson. But by August, Phantom was 2.2 points out of first in Allentown Prelims, and 8th tenths out at Allentown Finals. 8 tenths was the closest to first they got. They were 2.4 pts out in Quarters, and 2.8 pts in Semi's. Those numbers don't put them in the " real shot " category. They'd have had to be within a half a point to be in the " real shot " category it would seem to me coming into Finals Week....... SCV was in the same boat. They were 2.4 points out in the Quarters, and 2.8 pts out in the Semi's. And they also wern't within a point of first at the end of July that would lead one to believe they had a " real shot " of winning it all. Both Phantom and SCV were " longshots " at best once they pulled their busses into Buffalo for Finals Week it would seem to me. And their scores and placements once there, confirmed that. However, for what it's worth, I thoroughly enjoyed SCV '90 show of " Carmen ", and Phantom's 90 show of " Dreams of Desire ". Two VERY entertaining Corps for me that year. ( among others ) Edited February 7, 2010 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob984 Posted February 7, 2010 Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 I think we could have a " wide open " year this year, if 2 or 3 Corps come Finals week are in the Title hunt.But as for the possibility that " 5 or 6 Corps" have a shot at the title come Finals Week, I'd say that's pretty much in the impossible realm. There has never been a time in DCI that more than 4 Corps have had a legitimate shot of winning by the time the Corps busses arive in the parking lot for Quarters. By the time the Corps all arrive, the narrowing of the field has already taken place, so that about 2-4 Corps in any given year have a " real shot at it " ( Title ) Actually, there have been some times (but not many), where more than 4 had a shot. 1988 was especially up for grabs......scores were very tight.....there were 7 corps with a shot going into prelims, and they had beaten each other.....Blue Devils were the favorite, but walked away third.....there were no substantial spreads in score until semis and finals. Madison, who had lost to Devils by as much as 4 points early, won the title. Star, who finished 7th, won a regional, and had beaten many in front of them, including eventual champion Madison. In 1978, there was much movement in the top 5, and they all had a shot. You could argue that maybe the Bridgemen were a longshot, but that was due to schedule more than anything....their DCI appearances were limited due to the disqualification of 1977 and they were not in as many big shows....but they did fare out well, beating Vanguard and Devils at East prelims.. Bridgemen finished 5th. The Vanguard was like a good racehorse all year.....stalking, but not winning.....until prelims. Definitely wide-open, with 5 in the hunt. I do think we could have a year where 5 (or even more) are good enough to win, but I don't know if/when we will ever see another "wide open" year in terms of actual competitive results. GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) Actually, there have been some times (but not many), where more than 4 had a shot. 1988 was especially up for grabs......scores were very tight.....there were 7 corps with a shot going into prelims, and they had beaten each other.....Blue Devils were the favorite, but walked away third.....there were no substantial spreads in score until semis and finals. Madison, who had lost to Devils by as much as 4 points early, won the title. Star, who finished 7th, won a regional, and had beaten many in front of them, including eventual champion Madison.In 1978, there was much movement in the top 5, and they all had a shot. You could argue that maybe the Bridgemen were a longshot, but that was due to schedule more than anything....their DCI appearances were limited due to the disqualification of 1977 and they were not in as many big shows....but they did fare out well, beating Vanguard and Devils at East prelims.. Bridgemen finished 5th. The Vanguard was like a good racehorse all year.....stalking, but not winning.....until prelims. Definitely wide-open, with 5 in the hunt. I do think we could have a year where 5 (or even more) are good enough to win, but I don't know if/when we will ever see another "wide open" year in terms of actual competitive results. GB True, '88 WAS a donneybrook. That was the year Madison was just so so early in the competition season that year. I think they took a jaunt to Europe. The trip was certainly good for them, as they came back incredibly strong and literally shocked a lot of Corps late in that season to snag the title that year. I counted 5 Corps that had a " real shot " in '88 by Finals Week. So, that's one year anyway where it seemed like maybe 5 had a real shot.. As for 78,.. I don't know. After Allentown, I counted 3 maybe 4 Corps with a real shot. ( SCV, Phantom, BD for sure were neck and neck at the end) Edited February 7, 2010 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob984 Posted February 7, 2010 Author Share Posted February 7, 2010 True, '88 WAS a donneybrook. That was the year Madison was just so so early in the competition season that year. I think they took a jaunt to Europe. The trip was certainly good for them, as they came back incredibly strong and literally shocked a lot of Corps late in that season to snag the title that year. I counted 5 Corps that had a " real shot " in '88 by Finals Week. So, that's one year anyway where it seemed like maybe 5 had a real shot.. As for 78,.. I don't know. After Allentown, I counted 3 maybe 4 Corps with a real shot. ( SCV, Phantom, BD for sure were neck and neck at the end) In 78, Madison beat every corps in the country during the season and was in the hunt score-wise right to the end.....Bayonne also had some big wins and was within tenths of the Scouts going into prelims..... In 1988, another interesting point was this.....for that year only, prelim scores of the finalists were not announced. They did name the top 5 corps, but not their placement, and they drew for order of appearance at finals. The only reason that was done was for TV purposes. Finals judges were not to know the prelim scores/placements, and supposedly only the tabulator and DCI director knew the prelim results of the finalists, which were sealed/withheld until finals. I thought that was great. I spoke to a high level person from the adjudication community about 7 years later (who is STILL there) and brought it up. He absolutely HATED it and was also instrumental in helping to have it removed. I asked why. He stated, "because you most likely do not see the top two corps back to back to make the call on finals night. My reply to him was, "but what if the number 4 or 5 corps from prelims pulls the job of the night.......or is it only a 2 corps battle for champion?" His reply was silence, and the question was unanswered. I have posted that I thought returning to this idea may be good, but most (not all) of the replies indicated they like things as is.......prelim seedings.....prelim scores......finals order being reverse order of prelim finish......however, I believe it encourages "slotting" by the judge. Take that order of appearance and prelim score away, and I think the judge may react to each performance a bit better, and not be as hesitant to give a big number to somebody who turns it on. I would love to see a wide open year with results flipping around nightly, scores ultra-close, many in the hunt, and total competitive suspense going into nationals......probably wishful thinking, though.......... GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) Even in 1990, by the time we got to the 2nd week of August, it became a 3, maybe 4 Corps horse race for the title. Phantom and SCV had challenged early in the seasson. But by August, Phantom was 2.2 points out of first in Allentown Prelims, and 8th tenths out at Allentown Finals. 8 tenths was the closest to first they got. They were 2.4 pts out in Quarters, and 2.8 pts in Semi's. Those numbers don't put them in the " real shot " category. They'd have had to be within a half a point to be in the " real shot " category it would seem to me coming into Finals Week....... SCV was in the same boat. They were 2.4 points out in the Quarters, and 2.8 pts out in the Semi's. And they also wern't within a point of first at the end of July that would lead one to believe they had a " real shot " of winning it all. Both Phantom and SCV were " longshots " at best once they pulled their busses into Buffalo for Finals Week it would seem to me. And their scores and placements once there, confirmed that.However, for what it's worth, I thoroughly enjoyed SCV '90 show of " Carmen ", and Phantom's 90 show of " Dreams of Desire ". Two VERY entertaining Corps for me that year. ( among others ) Well, we will just have to disagree, I guess. Phantom and BD went undefeated all of 1st tour ( till Early - Mid July). By the end of the season, the top 5 corps had beaten each other at least once. I'm not sure which part of my post you want to diminish ( ) but that was incredibly competitive and as wide open as I've seen in a while. The closest thing I've seen to it has been 2007 when Bluecoats beat Cavies and Blue Devils. 2 points isn't really insurmountable. Phantom came from 3.7 points down in quarterfinals 1996 to grab a share of the DCI title! Position Corps Score 1 Blue Devils 98.300 4 Phantom Regiment 94.600 1 Blue Devils 97.400 1 Phantom Regiment 97.400 Also, I've posted all this before, but there was a crazy battle for the 11-15th place corps that year as well. I think Boston was in 1st place for Prelims (11 overall) only to end up in 15th place and out of finals. Realistically, any of the 11th - 15th place corps were worthy of a finals spot. It's just that the dreaded yet allusive 2 point swing that you don't seem to think happens happened/ Prelims 1 Boston Crusaders 84.400 2 Spirit of Atlanta 83.100 3 Dutch Boy 82.300 4 Blue Knights 82.100 Quarter Finals 11 Spirit of Atlanta 85.900 12 Blue Knights 85.700 13 Dutch Boy 84.800 14 Freelancers 84.700 15 Boston Crusaders 84.000 Semi Finals 11 Spirit of Atlanta 86.900 12 Dutch Boy 86.300 13 Blue Knights 85.400 14 Freelancers 84.300 15 Boston Crusaders 84.050 Edited February 8, 2010 by jjeffeory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlooContraGuy Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Never. BD is always going to be the favorite. just like in 2005? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) Well, we will just have to disagree, I guess. Phantom and BD went undefeated all of 1st tour ( till Early - Mid July). By the end of the season, the top 5 corps had beaten each other at least once. I'm not sure which part of my post you want to diminish ( ) but that was incredibly competitive and as wide open as I've seen in a while. The closest thing I've seen to it has been 2007 when Bluecoats beat Cavies and Blue Devils. 2 points isn't really insurmountable. Phantom came from 3.7 points down in quarterfinals 1996 to grab a share of the DCI title! Position Corps Score 1 Blue Devils 98.300 4 Phantom Regiment 94.600 1 Blue Devils 97.400 1 Phantom Regiment 97.400 Also, I've posted all this before, but there was a crazy battle for the 11-15th place corps that year as well. I think Boston was in 1st place for Prelims (11 overall) only to end up in 15th place and out of finals. Realistically, any of the 11th - 15th place corps were worthy of a finals spot. It's just that the dreaded yet allusive 2 point swing that you don't seem to think happens happened/ Prelims 1 Boston Crusaders 84.400 2 Spirit of Atlanta 83.100 3 Dutch Boy 82.300 4 Blue Knights 82.100 Quarter Finals 11 Spirit of Atlanta 85.900 12 Blue Knights 85.700 13 Dutch Boy 84.800 14 Freelancers 84.700 15 Boston Crusaders 84.000 Semi Finals 11 Spirit of Atlanta 86.900 12 Dutch Boy 86.300 13 Blue Knights 85.400 14 Freelancers 84.300 15 Boston Crusaders 84.050 I do think you've made a good case here. You got me to thinking... and you could be right on this re. 1990. Edited February 8, 2010 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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