Reverse the Rules

[BRASSO]

and out dated equipment used forcing groups to buy another set of horns if they wanted to keep up for the Jones'

God Bless the corps thats got their own

Well, survival of the fittest DOES has it's proponents. killing Corps off is a way to weed out the weak and elevate the few. That change took place. And we don't have 400 mediocre Corps now. We do have a couple of dozen super units now. And all change is beneficial, and the super few are very good, and the weak were killed off. And lets face it, it was their own fault for being so weak anyway. And we've elevated the stock of the breed that participates in this activity too. Plus, we have more of the " preferred " breed marching today than ever before. We allow the strong to survive by putting in place expensive proposals that position the well heeled strong to prosper..... and the weak to die more quickly. It's a very efficient system in this respect, and from that perspective DCI doesn't always get the credit it deserves for this in my opnion.

Edited February 12, 2010 by BRASSO

[84skyrydr]

and out dated equipment used forcing groups to buy another set of horns if they wanted to keep up for the Jones'

God Bless the corps thats got their own

But that doesn't matter cause we all know it has been said many times by one person who knows EVERYTHING EVERY corps has ever thought or felt, that it is good even if it killed off those that couldn't afford change mandated by those that either got free horns or heavily discounted horns. All change is great no matter how many corps disappear as a result. He knows...........

[Richard]

This thread reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago with a Chief Judge.

I posed the question: What would happen to a corps that went out and did a 1970's style show, that was near perfect across the board, in execution, and just packed with great General Effect?

Essentially, his reply was: Oh, the judges would crucify them. Judges don't want to see anything that resembles old time drum corps. Because it's a build-up point system, they would just not give them enough points, regardless of how great the show was. Bottom line...If it's not Artsy-fartsy, with a bunch of prancing and dancing, doesn't matter HOW GOOD it is. It CAN"T WIN !

It's tough to have symmetrical drill that's "packed with great General Effect". I don't care how well-executed a 70s style show is, it will never compete with something like what Crown (for example) put on the field last year, which was extremely well-executed and should get significantly more credit than a corps that's barely moving. I think the better question would be, would that 70s show make finals? Although it probably doesn't matter because even if a corps had a desire to do a 'throwback' show, it would have a VERY difficult time finding members who wanted to perform it.

I personally don't want to push all rules back to x year and set it in stone. What I do want is two very simple rules that help define what Drum and Bugle Corps is.

1. All sounds generated on the field are acoustic.

2. Instrumentation is limited to bell-front valved brass and percussion.

Now you can feel free to sing, dance, play Bb, narrate... go nuts! Find creative ways to make your ideas come to life and reach the ears of the audience and judges.

Anyway, attempting to get back on topic here...

This appears to be the general consensus of most who have criticized DCI's recent direction. Hypothetically speaking, if the two rules above were mandated as the definition of drum corps for the rest of time, where do you all think the activity would go from there?

Personally, I think if the above two rules were in force it wouldn't have too much impact on modern drum corps. Which is probably why so many people don't understand the electronics rule, because (so far) it hasn't had a very big impact on the activity. I don't think it's helping or hurting at the moment, though I can understand the fear of it being a 'gateway rule'.

Also, there are some laughably outrageous arguments being presented by both sides in this thread.

[Penn State]

This thread reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago with a Chief Judge.

I posed the question: What would happen to a corps that went out and did a 1970's style show, that was near perfect across the board, in execution, and just packed with great General Effect?

Essentially, his reply was: Oh, the judges would crucify them. Judges don't want to see anything that resembles old time drum corps. Because it's a build-up point system, they would just not give them enough points, regardless of how great the show was. Bottom line...If it's not Artsy-fartsy, with a bunch of prancing and dancing, doesn't matter HOW GOOD it is. It CAN"T WIN !

Really sad to hear that judges reward on personal preference and not for excellence...imo, if this is true (not saying it isn't though) it just taints the whole system...

-contra chris

[Jeff Ream]

It's tough to have symmetrical drill that's "packed with great General Effect". I don't care how well-executed a 70s style show is, it will never compete with something like what Crown (for example) put on the field last year, which was extremely well-executed and should get significantly more credit than a corps that's barely moving. I think the better question would be, would that 70s show make finals? Although it probably doesn't matter because even if a corps had a desire to do a 'throwback' show, it would have a VERY difficult time finding members who wanted to perform it.

Anyway, attempting to get back on topic here...

This appears to be the general consensus of most who have criticized DCI's recent direction. Hypothetically speaking, if the two rules above were mandated as the definition of drum corps for the rest of time, where do you all think the activity would go from there?

Personally, I think if the above two rules were in force it wouldn't have too much impact on modern drum corps. Which is probably why so many people don't understand the electronics rule, because (so far) it hasn't had a very big impact on the activity. I don't think it's helping or hurting at the moment, though I can understand the fear of it being a 'gateway rule'.

Also, there are some laughably outrageous arguments being presented by both sides in this thread.

I dont think not having electronics would hurt, and in fact may help pull back some fans who gave up and walked away.

and yes, so far, since the first vote in 2003 adding the amps, it's been a gateway rule and will continue to be

[kmansdrummin]

Some years back, I was the Pit Steward at a small racetrack in Wyoming. A bunch of race car driver "wanna be's" said they wanted to "Run Whatcha Brung" ( essentially, no rules ) We said, "Sure, go ahead."

They were thrilled, until they realized they had no spectators. NONE !

So, yeah....those who think there should be NO LIMITS in drum corps, when the fan base dwindles to zero.....

[kmansdrummin]

But that doesn't matter cause we all know it has been said many times by one person who knows EVERYTHING EVERY corps has ever thought or felt, that it is good even if it killed off those that couldn't afford change mandated by those that either got free horns or heavily discounted horns. All change is great no matter how many corps disappear as a result. He knows...........

[IllianaLancerContra]

Eliminate pit.

Simplifies logistics. And marching keyboards are cheaper than concert types.

[kmansdrummin]

Upon reading this, Mike D. says everything is going very well. On another forum, I asked the question "isn't DCI making enough money as it is?". The answer is no.

So if everything is hunky-dory, why are there less corps, with insane competitions to get a spot (from many other regions), and DCI not making enough money.

From what I understand they went from G Bugles to make the transition easier from band. (Even though the G Bugles have more power on the field), and made the pit crazy big.

With all the expenses with the new technology, corps won't be able to fully compete unless they get the goods for free. The haves have more, while the have nots, have not.

Thin down the pit. Make one instrument for each voice, (one keyboard per type), and get rid of cymbals, drumsets, drums, basses and ANYTHING THAT'S ON THE FIELD in the pit. Tune the drums to SOUND LIKE DRUMS. This would lessen expenses and would make the powers that be have to come up with better ideas. No electronics, no narration (unless it's not miked).

Bring back the tic system. C'mon the criteria is so subjective nowadays it's hard to say who won or lost. (Did the Blue Devils guard do their routine with the chairs exactly in unison?) Make the corps earn the score.

Bring back Drum Solos. Yes, I"m a drummer, but the way the shows are written, the only way to see world championship drumming is to watch the parking lot. The drummers would love it too.

Recognizable tunes that don't go at light speed. Let people enjoy the show instead of trying to keep up.

If DCI wants to do Broadway on the field, then do it and get rid of the drums and horns (since there are synths), and they can keep their DCI name.

Then there could be another circut for lower cost, more pure Drum Corps for more kids to have the opportunity to perform. (Kids who come off the street to learn to play.) That could be Drum and Bugle Corps.

Remember, if you want "no limits", you limit how many groups/people can play. Don't change just for the sake of change.

[perc2100]

Really sad to hear that judges reward on personal preference and not for excellence...imo, if this is true (not saying it isn't though) it just taints the whole system...

-contra chris

While I sincerely question the manner in which the information you quoted was delivered to us on DCP (i.e. I really doubt that the judge said those sentiments in the exact manner presented), I think that in all honesty if you take a show like, say Blue Devils 1976 and compare it to, say, Bluecoats 2009 it is hard to argue that Blue Devils 1976 (Champion) had the depth of design as even Bluecoats 09 (Top 6). If you go by the criteria on the judges sheets, a judge more than likely would not be able to give enough credit to Blue Devils '76 over Bluecoats 09.

The original post is this:

I posed the question: What would happen to a corps that went out and did a 1970's style show, that was near perfect across the board, in execution, and just packed with great General Effect?

Essentially, his reply was: Oh, the judges would crucify them. Judges don't want to see anything that resembles old time drum corps. Because it's a build-up point system, they would just not give them enough points, regardless of how great the show was. Bottom line...If it's not Artsy-fartsy, with a bunch of prancing and dancing, doesn't matter HOW GOOD it is. It CAN"T WIN !

I would guess the judge meant that the lack of demand, vocabulary, effect, etc. from an "old school" type design would not lend itself well to the current sheets. It's not necessarily a manner of personally liking a show, it's a manner of awarding a show that most matches the criteria set on the sheets.