Comment at Winter Olympics II

[jetman1287]

the problem I see is that way too much visual credit is given on the music sheets, and on the visual side, they rarely give credit for any kind of musical demands on the performer.

I also think from a scoring perspective, too often the performance number is too close to the book number just because. Hey if someone is trying stuff that deserves and 8.8, but they aren't achieving it, they shouldn't get that 8.6.

or...better put...if they aren't achieving it, since you have to link the what and how, if the how isn't there, the what should be lower, but there will be hell to pay if you don't give the full credit for book.

we've become too focused on the demand, and not enough on how the demand is performed.

even judging on the high school level, all you hear as a judge is "well we're trying this and this and that etc" and the answer is "but you aren't achieving any of it".

The shame is people don't get that at all levels

WE as fans are too focused on demand, as far as performance and scoring on the field, I feel demand isn't given enough credit.

Part of the problem is lack of independence when you're talking about what/how. Often the bottom number will be like .1 or .2 below for every corps...for the "demanding" ones maybe .4...but never anything dramatic.

Of course, the top number is more than just demand, but still...

Edited February 16, 2010 by jetman1287

[BigHoosierMack]

no real melodic lines to carry across a long phrase.

I hear people say this, but I don't feel that way while watching them. I do see the shift in show that you feel, but I have a hard calling the phrasing short, or even choppy 99.9% of the time. Maybe my definition of a melodic line and a long phrase is different, but they extend things so much that sometimes I feel abused at the end. But I really like it when I realize there was just a five minute(exaggerated, of course) phrase overlapping all those others little ones inside. Even the choppiest part of this year's show was one REALLLY long, melodic phrase even if it was a bit thinly scored....and seated...lol.

~M

[glory]

This is a thought-provoking discussion, but even as a "Legacy Fan" (I joined drum corps in 1979) I have to disagree with your primary premise. Yes, I DO watch my Legacy DVDs with great fondness. In fact, 1980 27th Lancers and Blue Devils are two of my favorites.

That being said, I cannot agree that these corps marched better than the current performers. In fact, it's not even close. While I agree that from an ensemble standpoint, the 70's drills were quite clean, they were also very simple. Yes, the intervals were usually pretty solid by finals, but look at the marching members....the upper body posture was terrible in many cases, with kids leaning back, hunched over, and torso control not at all evident much of the time. Check out Legacy DVDs for 77,78,79 & 80.

I had the priviledge of spending five weeks on the road last summer with Boston. and the degree to which their visual staff worked on movement/body control/lower body technique/upper body technique was mind blowing......the attention to these details began at the winter camps and extended right through finals week. And, I am confident that the other corps around BAC like Blue Stars and Phantom probably had the same kind of focus.

It is also misleading (albeit unintentional) to suggest that modern drill lacks the crispness of 30 years ago. True, the guards were more visceral and staccato in a military-precison manner (which I enjoy, btw), but the visual designs then were frequently static and very slow to evolve when moving.....not to mention the standstill concert piece. I truly think that some of the geometric, rotating forms we see now from contemporary corps are executed at an incredibly high level.

I have said before that I think some "Legacy fans" ( not necessarily you, Garry ) should spend a week hanging with or traveling with the 2010 corps of their choice.....to see first hand how kids are taught and the level of accountability they have now, and they would feel a whole lot better about the direction of our activity. As a visual guy, I honor and cherish our common drum corps roots, but I absolutely love the level the corps are at now.

Thank you for injecting some much-needed reality into this discussion.

I'll grant that certain aspects of PRECISION were more OBVIOUS in yesteryear. I won't concede the suggestion that today's shows are lacking in detail or their execution. Today's shows can be brilliantly detailed and executed. It's just that the detail and the execution often are different from the style from the past in part because the show is more complex.

HH

[Cathie Wiener]

figure skating would be much more audience friendly and see increased audience size if they did fewer tricks and paid MUCH more attention to the music.

They already have this in ice dancing.

Here's an interesting story about it with three U.S siblings competing and none of them representing the U.S.

http://www.recordernewspapers.com/articles...57007230866.txt

[Jeff Ream]

WE as fans are too focused on demand, as far as performance and scoring on the field, I feel demand isn't given enough credit.

Part of the problem is lack of independence when you're talking about what/how. Often the bottom number will be like .1 or .2 below for every corps...for the "demanding" ones maybe .4...but never anything dramatic.

Of course, the top number is more than just demand, but still...

well demand is factored in, and too often all people think about. and yes the what score is too often too close.

but lets be realistic....if you arent achieving it by Late July, there should be a gap, or you should be smart and make it achievable. it's ok by finals to out perform the book, tho few do.

[The Other Mike]

I can't comment on the guard, but for the musical side, there IS only so fast the fingers and feet can move...we might be approaching or at the limit of that element of music...definitely in brass....percussion might have a few more bpm to cram in.

Not if on skates and ice.........

[CrunchyTenor]

Wow, lots of good discussion, and I won't presume to say anyone is right or wrong. (And, Craig, I'd love to have the luxury to spend a couple of weeks with ANY corps on tour or at camps!)

As noted, there were plenty of execution errors BITD. That's why a score in the 90's wasn't as common as contemporary corps. They got ticked for it.

As far as a higher average age, that's pretty much a given since many World Class corps won't even consider high school aged kids unless their audition is spectacular.

I will disagree, though, that "the detail and the execution often are different from the style from the past in part because the show is more complex." That's almost like saying black was different then than black is now. Execution is execution. If you have to step out of the form to catch that seven, maybe you shouldn't throw a seven. The catch, in position, is more important to me than the number of rotations someone can put on a rifle or saber. Heck, I can throw a seven, but there's no way I'm EVER going to catch it! Same could be said for drill vs visual. If you have to water the music to execute the drill, maybe the drill is TOO complex.

Eventually we will cross the line, or maybe we already have, of musicality as it relates to velocity and complexity. I will take my hat off to the corps members of today for the demands put upon them and their abilities to go out and put it on the field everyday.

Keep up the conversation, and thanks for the civility. And, please, don't dismiss the conversation by taking a pot shot and running away. If you have nothing to contribute, or can't defend your position, please skip it and move on to the "best 45th place corps without a food truck" thread.

Garry in Vegas

Edited February 16, 2010 by CrunchyTenor

[cowtown]

My personal preference would be that the shows today had less visual demand and better visual execution. Same with the guards but I don’t see that happening until the corps change the judging

I hate seeing all that slop at finals

I think the marchers and guard today are better trained, way more advanced than BITD, which is why its so confounding that they often can’t hit sharp form or have unison spins (yes, some can but they are the exception)

Maybe without critics and the excuses /spin of the staffs, corps will be called out on slop - a cow can still dream

[Kamarag]

My personal preference would be that the shows today had less visual demand and better visual execution. Same with the guards but I don’t see that happening until the corps change the judging

This is pretty much spot-on. I'd even take it a step further, and change the reward system to include variety being rewarded in some way so we can get some mid-level tempo stuff back in shows. The way it is now, you either go fast or slow...there's no reward for middle ground at all.

Imagine if corps could succeed playing music in the 120-160 pocket and be rewarded? You'd get your super-clean execution as a bonus result.

[Jeff Ream]

This is pretty much spot-on. I'd even take it a step further, and change the reward system to include variety being rewarded in some way so we can get some mid-level tempo stuff back in shows. The way it is now, you either go fast or slow...there's no reward for middle ground at all.

Imagine if corps could succeed playing music in the 120-160 pocket and be rewarded? You'd get your super-clean execution as a bonus result.

speed kills. it really does. it wasnt that long ago that you save the 180 bpm or higher tempos til the very end. now if you arent at 180, you better be in a ballad or transition