If You Had to Choose...

[BRASSO]

A lot of people back when the actual change happened sure did think it was a fundamental change to drum corps. It would've been fun to see DCP around back then so we could see the same exact reactions that happened over every recent change. lol.

I agree that it would have made for a spirited discussion. For one , if DCP was around back then, we'd have had a few thousand more posters on here rather than the much smaller number that we have on here now. Having a much, much larger discussion group would indeed make for an interesting and spirited forum to discuss all these topics.

Edited February 27, 2010 by BRASSO

[Lance]

Forget the past, I 'd like to see how interesting things would get for baseball fans, if MLB brought in a 4th base, or for basketball fans, the NBA brought in an extra foul shot ( 3) on fouls, and for football fans, if the NFL brought in frizz bees where the QB would have the option to hike a football or a frizz bee when he broke from the huddle and went over center.

Do you think sports fans would sit back quietly and watch all these additions being added..... and would chaulk it all u to " the natural evolution of the sport " ? Not in your life.

Good grief, Basketball fans had a stroke when the ABA decided in the 70's to change the simple COLOR of the basketball from brown to...... gulp....... multi colored. Can you imagine that " radical " transformation ? The NBA listened to their fans however and scrapped the multi colored basketball when the ABA and NBA merged and the NBA went back to the color of the basketball that Dr. Naismith chose when he invented the game of basketball over a 100 years ago.

Yep, you're getting at exactly what I'm talking about.

[MikeD]

These are poor examples of the point, Mike, IMO. None of the things you listed (and none of the other changes made over the years) changed the fundamental sound of brass and drums coming from the field (maybe with the exception of grounding and growing the pit).

If reeds are allowed in the pit that's one thing, because it doesn't change the fundamental sound ON the field. But should the WW plan go to it's natural end and puts reeds on the field it can only be done by removing brass (and probably some battery as well) to stay under the member limit. And if they remove the member restriction to allow the addition of WW then the fundamental sound coming off the field is changed none-the-less.

To make THIS sound like THAT eliminates THIS.

That's selfish.

No, it's not at all. To demand that drum corps exist like a fly frozen in time in amber because that's what you (the royal you) like is what is selfish. Drum corps, luckily, has not done that over time; no reason to start now.

As to the member limit, IMO if WW are allowed on the field, the limit will grow another bus-size...to 200.

[MikeD]

Nice try. But in 2009, MLB had the 2nd LARGEST overall attendance numbers in the history of of Major League Baseball ( 78, 624, 324) despite opening 2 new ballparks ( Yankees, Mets ) that had smaller seating capacity stadiums than their previous stadiums. Bigger attendance figures than in 2008 too. An INCREASE in the number of total fans coming out to watch major league baseball. The per "team average" was down approx. 6.8 % because a couple of franchises ( Toronto, Oakland ) had abysmal drop off numbers,( 15 %) from the previous year and this brought the "per team average "obviously down a bit from 2008. This was not economy driven. It is because the product they put out the field was less than satisfying for these particular home town fans. But the key, baseball's total attendance numbers ,was in almost a record breaking mode overall last year.

So... when I said above that attendance was UP in Major League Baseball in my post above, I was correct.

MLB attendance drops for second straight season

Saturday, October 03, 2009

Attendance has dropped 6.9% across the majors to its lowest level since 2003, an average of 30,276. That follows a 0.8% slide last year from the record average of 32,785 set in 2007.

NEW YORK (AP) — Rich Aurilia (FSY) noticed all the empty seats as he made his way around the major leagues during the second half of this season.

"You have to," the San Francisco Giants infielder said. "I think you do in the places where the teams are totally out of it."

Attendance has dropped 6.9% across the majors to its lowest level since 2003, an average of 30,276. That follows a 0.8% slide last year from the record average of 32,785 set in 2007.

Given the recession and the decrease in capacity in two new ballparks that opened in New York this year, baseball officials are pleased.

MLB

The 2009 total was the lowest since 2004....09= 73,401,938 04= 72,968,953...in between the numbers varied between 74+ and 79+ million. So no, 2009 was not a record year.

[MikeD]

Forget the past, I 'd like to see how interesting things would get for baseball fans, if MLB brought in a 4th base, or for basketball fans, the NBA brought in an extra foul shot ( 3) on fouls, and for football fans, if the NFL brought in frizz bees where the QB would have the option to hike a football or a frizz bee when he broke from the huddle and went over center.

Do you think sports fans would sit back quietly and watch all these additions being added..... and would chaulk it all u to " the natural evolution of the sport " ? Not in your life.

Good grief, Basketball fans had a stroke when the ABA decided in the 70's to change the simple COLOR of the basketball from brown to...... gulp....... multi colored. Can you imagine that " radical " transformation ? The NBA listened to their fans however and scrapped the multi colored basketball when the ABA and NBA merged and the NBA went back to the color of the basketball that Dr. Naismith chose when he invented the game of basketball over a 100 years ago.

The NBA added the 3-point shot and the AL added the DH.

[BRASSO]

MLB

The 2009 total was the lowest since 2004....09= 73,401,938 04= 72,968,953...in between the numbers varied between 74+ and 79+ million. So no, 2009 was not a record year.

My guess, you're probably good in music, but just not that good at math, Mike..... or reading comprehension. I never said 2009 was" a record year" for attendance. You can look, but won't find that statement above.. ANYWHERE. I said that MLB attendance grew overall in 2009 from the previous year, and that in 2009 MLB had their 2nd largest total attendance numbers in their history. That statement is accurate and verifiable.

We need to keep these comments in the context that you had said that Drum Corps attendance is down " due to the economy ". I replied to this comment, that sports attendance , despite ticket price increases, has in many cases grown during the bad economy. This is an accurate statement and is also true with Major League Baseball as well. College football total attendance, and NFL attendance, regular season and exhibition season, has not been adversely affected by" the bad economy " ( so far,but could change as we move forward ). Why do you think though that 2009 DCI regular season, DCI theatre show attendance, finals attendance, etc was down ? It's much much more than " the bad economy " at work here Mike, and that would be my central point.

Edited February 28, 2010 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

These are poor examples of the point, Mike, IMO. None of the things you listed (and none of the other changes made over the years) changed the fundamental sound of brass and drums coming from the field (maybe with the exception of grounding and growing the pit).

If reeds are allowed in the pit that's one thing, because it doesn't change the fundamental sound ON the field. But should the WW plan go to it's natural end and puts reeds on the field it can only be done by removing brass (and probably some battery as well) to stay under the member limit. And if they remove the member restriction to allow the addition of WW then the fundamental sound coming off the field is changed none-the-less.

To make THIS sound like THAT eliminates THIS.

That's selfish.

well put

[Jeff Ream]

No, it's not at all. To demand that drum corps exist like a fly frozen in time in amber because that's what you (the royal you) like is what is selfish. Drum corps, luckily, has not done that over time; no reason to start now.

As to the member limit, IMO if WW are allowed on the field, the limit will grow another bus-size...to 200.

ya know...you're right. Why baseball should have a larger ball, more people on the field too.

Nascar should turn right at every racetrack too.

Hockey...that puck is so small....i mean how old school.

Football....why...you get tackled, and people should be able to just lay on you to kill the clock.

why....holy cow.....35 year olds should be able to play college hoops too.

I mean let's destory all traditions.

oh and everything listed outdraws drum corps by millions a year......and have made very few MAJOR changes to the product over time

hmmm, maybe there's a reason for that

[MikeD]

My guess, you're probably good in music, but just not that good at math, Mike..... or reading comprehension. I never said 2009 was" a record year" for attendance. You can look, but won't find that statement above.. ANYWHERE. I said that MLB attendance grew overall in 2009 from the previous year, and that in 2009 MLB had their 2nd largest total attendance numbers in their history. That statement is accurate and verifiable.

I just showed you that you are WRONG in that assertion, and I posted two links that both showed how 2009 baseball attendance was NOT the second largest ever. And don't you DARE make personal statements like the ones I bolded.

[BRASSO]

The NBA added the 3-point shot and the AL added the DH.

These are minor changes in comparison to the changes in Drum and Bugle Corps ( incorporating new insruments found more frequently in other units ). VERY minor in comparison.

However..... if the NBA voted to bring in lacrosse sticks ( another sport ) to hoist the ball into the basket, and baseball brought in roller skates ( another sport ) for runners on base to more quickly navigate the bases..... THEN..... we might consider the changes between NBA , MLB, and Drum and Bugle Corps to be of the same degree of transformation.

It is always a matter of DEGREE when one compares changes allowed to take place among different entities.

The chief" instrument " of major league baseball is the baseball itself. It has undergone very little change since ( lets say ) 1960. It has not been allowed to change in size.... in weight..... in shape.... in color.... in texture.

the chief " instrument" of the National Basketball Association is the basketball itself. It has undergone little change since 1960. It has not been allowed to change in size..... in weight.... in shape.... in color..... in texture.

the chief ' instrument " of the Drum and Bugle Corps activity is the bugle itself. It has undergone MASSIVE changes since 1960. It has been allowed to change in size..... in weight.... in shape... in sound..... in texture.....in almost every way imaginable so that a " bugle " as conventionally understood may or may not describe the instrument used now in this Drum Corps activity.

And this above illustrates why the degree of changes in sports and Drum and Bugle Corps in DCI can not be seen in the same light as...... " well, AL has adopted the DH and the NBA has adopted te 3 point shot ". ( so somehow these sports leagues have allowed for big changes too )

No. It's not the same DEGREE of change. Not even close.

Edited March 1, 2010 by BRASSO