Positive Reinforcement Vs Negative Reinforcement

[AlanAndreasen]

In one particular junior corps I marched if a snare drummer ticked, or was called out by a staff member the whole snare line dropped, if a quad ticked the whole quad line dropped and so on. It was all self enforced. That was motivation to correct mistakes in a hurry.

You know, this only turns players against each other. I've seen it. Who is the weakest player? Cut 'em... (If you want me to name names then pm me)

I worked with an A60 drum line that graduated individuals who eventually marched Madison, BAC, PR, and the world champion 89 SCV. They all got be where they wanted to be and without a push up. There was one guy who was a time bomb. For three years he ticked beyond all imagination. He knew it, he worked at it, and yes to our surprise he made a top 12 snare line. Do you honestly think he'd have stuck with it if the whole line had to drop every time he ticked? There are folks that marched with him that were way more skilled and they remember him fondly because he made it happen.

There is a lot more to drum corps than being the "least suckiest." I'm sorry if I come across as being preachy, although, really I'm not sorry. This is my two sons' rookie year and one is sailing through and the other is not quite cutting it. They both know it - not one push up will change anything. Same genetics, go figure. Ha!

[Slow Adam]

You know, this only turns players against each other. I've seen it. Who is the weakest player? Cut 'em... (If you want me to name names then pm me)

In this case it didn't. As players the skill level of the line was very consistent, and we had great chemistry with each other. It was all about being the guy who made his everyone else do the fewest pushups.

[76strad]

As I was always taught, however didnt happen all the time, the specified leaders kind of lead the older kids in the focus and intensity of the practice, while teaching the younger kids. The younger kids would end up following all of the older guys. However, the encouragement would do quite a bit, but always stayed set until the sec ldr felt like dropping. If things wernt going or progressing as they should, there would be another way of encouraging such as laps, pushups, and yelling. However mostly we were raised on self-induced dicipline, like if you miss your set by even a bit or you crack a note etc you drop. Oh well that's some of what we did.

[76strad]

You know, this only turns players against each other. I've seen it. Who is the weakest player? Cut 'em... (If you want me to name names then pm me)

I worked with an A60 drum line that graduated individuals who eventually marched Madison, BAC, PR, and the world champion 89 SCV. They all got be where they wanted to be and without a push up. There was one guy who was a time bomb. For three years he ticked beyond all imagination. He knew it, he worked at it, and yes to our surprise he made a top 12 snare line. Do you honestly think he'd have stuck with it if the whole line had to drop every time he ticked? There are folks that marched with him that were way more skilled and they remember him fondly because he made it happen.

There is a lot more to drum corps than being the "least suckiest." I'm sorry if I come across as being preachy, although, really I'm not sorry. This is my two sons' rookie year and one is sailing through and the other is not quite cutting it. They both know it - not one push up will change anything. Same genetics, go figure. Ha!

I agree, the threat of cutting makes alot of people go practice it till its right, then they play it right and are back on it, but I see it more as if they work at it and arnt getting anywhere; then you go I see you struggling at it, how can I help? I mean people waving a the "cut knife" at each other doesnt help anyone it just makes people annoyed and mad at each other.

[DanjrusMcRynky]

I never understood using running or push-ups as "punishment" for errors. What are you teaching? How does that improve the student's skills?

The "leaf" thing is BS. It has more to do with the instructor's desire to exert some kind of perceived control or authority over the student than it does with teaching. I'm glad I was never "taught" by anyone like that.

Students of any age respond best when the teacher demonstrates respect and caring for the student. The type of discipline you expect/tolerate and teh way you conduct your rehearsal is secondary, and as long as the students buy in and feel their being treated appropriately, they'll usually do what's asked of them.

Interestingly enough, one of my first instructors had the biggest influence over me in regards to how NOT to teach. This was a line of high school kids, who hadn't even touched drums before. Whenever we would have a bad attack, instead of a "no, try it again" or any kind of instruction of how to make it better, the response would be to yell, make us run a mile, yell some more, then do it again. Needless to say at that level this created an endless cycle, where we would spend full rehearsals running, and the only playing done would be a slew of bad attacks.

He wasn't "invited" back the next year.

[Dave]

It's all got its place. Pushups and running are good not only for the physical exercise but for the "reminding" aspect, and you definitely saw a downward trend in both being required as the season went on. But it's gotta come from within the membership and not just the staff; when I marched Blue Stars we had a somewhat older line on average than other II/III corps and those vets demanded a lot from the rookies. Yeah, there was some ########ishness going on, but it was minor in comparison to see people we rookies respected taking responsibility for their mistakes and doing what they had to do. And quite frankly, while most instruction works best coming from the attitude of "this is where I want to take us, this is how to get there," sometimes you have to kick a dude's ###. If that's all you can do, or if you have to pull that out of your bag of tricks frequently, something's wrong, but there's a time and a place for everything.

[TAFL]

There is a lot more to drum corps than being the "least suckiest." I'm sorry if I come across as being preachy, although, really I'm not sorry. This is my two sons' rookie year and one is sailing through and the other is not quite cutting it. They both know it - not one push up will change anything. Same genetics, go figure. Ha!

Preach on!

What happens in military training is actually done for several reasons, only one of which is to promote focus. There aren't many activities that share all of the same goals that approach serves, so there are very few that should share that approach. Drum corps is not one I would number among those.

When my tenor line munged a section of a tune, that meant we all spent extra time working out that section. If one of my guys were having significantly more problems than the others, that meant I spent even more time working with just that one player. I got a 14 yo added to my line in April of one year, an awkward, novice tick box both in music and marching. By the time tour rolled around, he was sick of me pushing him and all the extra rehearsal--and the line was real #### good.

I doubt we would have been near as good had I wasted time with pushups or running or other stupid crap. Our instructors also never used any of that crap.

[soccerguy315]

when instructors repeatedly yell, honestly, I just tune them out.

I heavily prefer the "we need more volume from the 3rd trumpets here next time please" comment instead of the "OMG, 3RD TRUMPETS ARE YOU EVEN PLAYING?!?!?! DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE F YOU ARE DOING???"

When you don't raise your voice giving instructions and teaching, then when you NEED to do it, it is a big deal, and people will go "whoa" and listen. If you just yell all the time then you are just the dbag yelling.

Also I think "if you would stop yelling at us, we could practice to fix the issue we had... you yelling is not solving any problems."

Edited March 4, 2010 by soccerguy315

[84BDsop]

when instructors repeatedly yell, honestly, I just tune them out.

I heavily prefer the "we need more volume from the 3rd trumpets here next time please" comment instead of the "OMG, 3RD TRUMPETS ARE YOU EVEN PLAYING?!?!?! DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE F YOU ARE DOING???"

When you don't raise your voice giving instructions and teaching, then when you NEED to do it, it is a big deal, and people will go "whoa" and listen. If you just yell all the time then you are just the dbag yelling.

Also I think "if you would stop yelling at us, we could practice to fix the issue we had... you yelling is not solving any problems."

"Figure it out!"

Hate that.....if they could figure it out, they woudn't be making the mistake.

if I'm making a mistake consistently, try to figure out WHY I'm making it and help me fugure out how to correct it....I'll learn a LOT better that way.

[84BDsop]

OMG, 3RD TRUMPETS ARE YOU EVEN PLAYING?!?!?!

Yeah.....but when you stack the 1st part with 6 screaming upper leads against 2 2nd and 2 3rds, the bottom guys can play as loud as they can and still get buried...