Amps, Electronics, Vocals etc

[dustyboo]

OK, it looks like all these things are here to stay in Drum Corps. Even though I am a band director, and am very used to seeing all these things on the field from marching bands, I have to say I was totally opposed to almost any of these occuring in DCI. To be honest, it wouldn't bother me a bit if they pulled all these out of the allowable things on the fireld tomorrow. But I don't think it will happen.

I haven't even been that excited about it from most marching bands. There are a few that use them very well, and there have been a few times when they have actually added something to the shows performance. However, there are just so many bands who in my opinion really take away from the quality of the performance by using such gimmicks. I remember a BOA show a few years back, where they actually played a recording of Martin Luther King's speech during the show. I have to say, that actually made me cringe a little bit. No offense to the kids in that wonderful marching band, but I thought it was totally tasteless. I am really hoping DCI doesn't end up going in that direction.

I remember when DCI first came out with the amps, there were several corps that had performances ruined from the badly adjusted levels of the amps. I remember leaving several stadiums that year thinking how badly it sounded. Luckily most of the corps have adjusted, and there have been several moments over the last few years, where I have really enjoyed the extra body it has given the pit.

Talking/singing has been around for many years. I know of tasteful and tasteless uses of it. I remember enjoying the Boston Crusaders vocal moments in 2000, and while I would have rather heard a hornline playing that melody, I didn't mind the nicely done, short vocal arrangement.

Synthesizers bring up interesing moments too. Good or bad seems to be determined on how well they fit the music of the corps, and how they blend in with the rest of the corps. I hate to admit it, but I kind of enjoyed the Blue Devils and Vanguard Cadets use of synths last year. And while I think Colts should have made finals, I really didn't enjoy the use of seagull sounds from the synths. I know it fit the theme, just didn't enjoy it. To be honest, I could easily live without anyone using synths this year. I know that won't happen, but I kind of miss just the wholesome amazing sound of hornlines and drumlines, with a wonderfully melodic pit.

So, overall what are your opinions of the recently(last 7 years of so) added amps, synths, etc? When do you think they have really added to a performance, when do you think they have really taken away from a performance? Do you wish/still wish, they weren't allowed?

It's no secret of my views on this topic. I don't like it and won't support DCI because of it. Frankly I'm tired of hearing all these people that keep saying they don't enjoy seeing the corps use these "toys" but they keep going anyway. Nothing will change unless you stop buying tickets and supporting the corps. So, either put up or stop whinning.

[SFZFAN]

OK, it looks like all these things are here to stay in Drum Corps. Even though I am a band director, and am very used to seeing all these things on the field from marching bands, I have to say I was totally opposed to almost any of these occuring in DCI. To be honest, it wouldn't bother me a bit if they pulled all these out of the allowable things on the fireld tomorrow. But I don't think it will happen.

I haven't even been that excited about it from most marching bands. There are a few that use them very well, and there have been a few times when they have actually added something to the shows performance. However, there are just so many bands who in my opinion really take away from the quality of the performance by using such gimmicks. I remember a BOA show a few years back, where they actually played a recording of Martin Luther King's speech during the show. I have to say, that actually made me cringe a little bit. No offense to the kids in that wonderful marching band, but I thought it was totally tasteless. I am really hoping DCI doesn't end up going in that direction.

I remember when DCI first came out with the amps, there were several corps that had performances ruined from the badly adjusted levels of the amps. I remember leaving several stadiums that year thinking how badly it sounded. Luckily most of the corps have adjusted, and there have been several moments over the last few years, where I have really enjoyed the extra body it has given the pit.

Talking/singing has been around for many years. I know of tasteful and tasteless uses of it. I remember enjoying the Boston Crusaders vocal moments in 2000, and while I would have rather heard a hornline playing that melody, I didn't mind the nicely done, short vocal arrangement.

Synthesizers bring up interesing moments too. Good or bad seems to be determined on how well they fit the music of the corps, and how they blend in with the rest of the corps. I hate to admit it, but I kind of enjoyed the Blue Devils and Vanguard Cadets use of synths last year. And while I think Colts should have made finals, I really didn't enjoy the use of seagull sounds from the synths. I know it fit the theme, just didn't enjoy it. To be honest, I could easily live without anyone using synths this year. I know that won't happen, but I kind of miss just the wholesome amazing sound of hornlines and drumlines, with a wonderfully melodic pit.

So, overall what are your opinions of the recently(last 7 years of so) added amps, synths, etc? When do you think they have really added to a performance, when do you think they have really taken away from a performance? Do you wish/still wish, they weren't allowed?

I had not been to a show in maybe 20 years until I went to a 2005 show. I was surprised that they had amps at all, since I had been out of the loop for so long. The only corps that had a tasteful level of amplification that night was Madison. Everyone else was way too loud. It left a bad taste in my mouth that I just can't get rid of. I don't think electronics have a place in drum corps. Obviously, nobody asked me. I love this activity so much that I still go to shows when I can, I donate annually to my two favorite corps, and just try to grin and bear it when the amps are to loud or when the stupid synthesizers kick in. I'm afraid electronics are here to stay unfortunately.

[Just A Plain Old Fan]

I had not been to a show in maybe 20 years until I went to a 2005 show. I was surprised that they had amps at all, since I had been out of the loop for so long. The only corps that had a tasteful level of amplification that night was Madison. Everyone else was way too loud. It left a bad taste in my mouth that I just can't get rid of. I don't think electronics have a place in drum corps. Obviously, nobody asked me. I love this activity so much that I still go to shows when I can, I donate annually to my two favorite corps, and just try to grin and bear it when the amps are to loud or when the stupid synthesizers kick in. I'm afraid electronics are here to stay unfortunately.

<open pontification> I really think amplifying the pits is OK, because it enables the pit to play with a more "concert" sound, but beyond that, not a fan. I'm one for thinking that it's ok for BOA and DCI to be different. </end>

[Sam98]

<open pontification> I really think amplifying the pits is OK, because it enables the pit to play with a more "concert" sound, but beyond that, not a fan. I'm one for thinking that it's ok for BOA and DCI to be different. </end>

I'm not so sure that electronics and amps are here to stay, at least in drum corps. I think they're in vogue at the moment and many corps are experimenting with them, but I can't believe most corps aren't finding them a pain in the ### to haul around and to deal the logistics (personnel, electricity, balance, etc.) night after night and for every rehearsal. Not to mention the fact that, to my way of thinking, the added cost of the equipment is probably a big contributing factor in driving up the cost of member dues, preventing actual marching/playing members from joining the corps.

I just don't think they're worth it for the limited effect they produce.

[CrownStarr]

I'm not so sure that electronics and amps are here to stay, at least in drum corps. I think they're in vogue at the moment and many corps are experimenting with them, but I can't believe most corps aren't finding them a pain in the ### to haul around and to deal the logistics (personnel, electricity, balance, etc.) night after night and for every rehearsal. Not to mention the fact that, to my way of thinking, the added cost of the equipment is probably a big contributing factor in driving up the cost of member dues, preventing actual marching/playing members from joining the corps.

I just don't think they're worth it for the limited effect they produce.

Compared to the costs of buying a full hornline, drumline, or pit (minus the electronics)? Or the astronomical costs of getting a corps down the road all summer long? I doubt the cost of the electronics has that much of an impact.

[ContraFart]

Let me ask a question....how many people who do not like the change are say, under 30? I would say very few. I think there are people who are way too attached to 1 valve bugles and starting guns, and I believe those people focus far too much on the negative, rather than the positive. Also to not support DCI because you feel that the progression of the activity will stop because of your refusal to buy tickets is self righteous and a major detriment to the individual corps and the activity. If anything the competitive quality of all the corps has significantly increased in the past 15 years. (I would venture to say a 10th place corps in 1997 would have trouble making semis today), and the innovation I have seen in many shows that have used amplification have progressed the art form tremendously.

That being said...amplification is still in its infancy, and synthesizers just came out of the womb. They are another tool in this art form, a tool which has yet seen its full potential. There are issues that can be fixed by scoring such as balance issues, and too much bass support of the hornline. However there are limitless uses of this technology. some which have yet to be imagined. There will be corps that use it poorly (98 Cadets), but there have already been great uses of the technology. (09 BD, SCV, Blue Stars).

Like it or not this change is here to stay. You can embrace it, or you can let yourself be frustrated by it.

[Jeff Ream]

actually, many people under 30 have said they dont like it

[BigW]

Let me ask a question....how many people who do not like the change are say, under 30? I would say very few. I think there are people who are way too attached to 1 valve bugles and starting guns, and I believe those people focus far too much on the negative, rather than the positive. Also to not support DCI because you feel that the progression of the activity will stop because of your refusal to buy tickets is self righteous and a major detriment to the individual corps and the activity. If anything the competitive quality of all the corps has significantly increased in the past 15 years. (I would venture to say a 10th place corps in 1997 would have trouble making semis today), and the innovation I have seen in many shows that have used amplification have progressed the art form tremendously.

That being said...amplification is still in its infancy, and synthesizers just came out of the womb. They are another tool in this art form, a tool which has yet seen its full potential. There are issues that can be fixed by scoring such as balance issues, and too much bass support of the hornline. However there are limitless uses of this technology. some which have yet to be imagined. There will be corps that use it poorly (98 Cadets), but there have already been great uses of the technology. (09 BD, SCV, Blue Stars).

Like it or not this change is here to stay. You can embrace it, or you can let yourself be frustrated by it.

Colby---

You're really pigeonholing those of us who disagree and have questions. We\re not all stuck in some kind of Star Trek Temporal Loop.

I like Bartok, Resphighi, Zappa, Ellis, Levy, Ives, many great 20th century seriosu music composers- (I'm no narrow-minded lug who thinks corps should play pop and easily recognizable tunes only) and to say amplification is 'new' is rather short-sighted. Sun Ra (another great innovative composer) used synthesizers and amplification to great effect 50 or more years ago. It's not new technology. It's fairly mature in many ways. It's just been handled cheaply and in an amateurish way by some groups, or the stuff breaks down at critical moments. Seen it happen. Saw a girl nearly break down in tears at a major band championship in front of my face when her keyboard went Tango Uniform. Saw her director in the stands want to crawl in a hole and die. The stuff worked fine the week before. All I know is I would tend to avoid it unless I had a professional electronics roadie with my group making sure everything was well-and properly maintained for my band or corps, just like havnig a percussion tech. I know a very good one who works for major television events. He told me his or someone similar to him's services would be pricey. In this economy, is that a good use of a corps' budget?

People have a right to appreciate what they want. I loathe the "You must conform and like what we provide you and support it regardless of whether you think it has artistic merit or not so the activity doesn't die" as a rather arrogant and utterly insulting and overbearing stance to take towards anyone. Especially when many of those individuals who performed and contributed in many ways for years in this activity- maybe quite more than you have. Some of these people perhaps might know something. Many of them have music and education degrees. We're not holding leaky G-D Bugles in our mitts and insiting upon that sort of thing by any means. Maybe it's arrogance on our part to say we don't like something. Fine- but in an activity that usually tries to hold to and respect some tradition, axing it's "old" fans and hoping you gather up new ones to replace them by thinking these changes will make things more relevant to the kids because it's more like what they do is foolish. I came to corps because I liked what it was, and that was that it was very different from my band. That it was not similar to it in many ways.

Look-- there are some programs over the last several seasons that I believe have bridged this divide you speak of. It is possible to utilize modern visual design and musical concepts to reach out to the broad spectrum of fans. I can cite examples if needed but I type badly and proofread slowly.

And as for the whole BoA/DCI issue- I like BoA too- but why not be different in DCI? Why not have one's own specific "brand" and flavor of the activity instead of just packaging everything the same with the exception of adding Woodwinds? Why make DCI essentially summer BoA for the top end HS kids and the College kids?

In short- don't throw all of us who may disagree into the Paleolithic era as a bunch of know-nothing cavemen. Maybe some of us are more thoughtfully questioning the need for "change" for change's sake. Some of these shows have perhaps progressed certain things- but some of them have also proven to be rather unpopular. They've progressed the activity in showing creative staffs what to avoid like the plague in certain instances. Sometimes- that's necessary. Innovation fails at times. It's a gamble. It's not always successful because it's "New" or "Different". It has worked beautifully in DCI at times, and paid off. It's still a very calculated gamble. I then ask- is it worth gambling extensively when your students are dishing out 2500 or more dollars for the experience that one provides? A good question, with no outright correct answer, I think. But, I also know I'd take that into consideration if I were to try and develop an exciting, competitive, and creative program out of respect for those kids.

And as for quality- yes. Everyone plays exceptionally well, with quite exceptional technique. There's no argument about that. But is what they're playing always inspiring and musically engaging to the audience? (And no, I don't mean play loud all the ding-dong day either.) Not all of the time, unless your idea of entertainment is solely based on generating effect through excellence. There's more to it. Some of us 'Cavemen' know about the "Effect Triad"- and while there has been some fascinating (and also some rather unamusing and awful examples as well) experimentation in terms of the intellectual and aesthetic side of the triad recently, some of these shows come off as emotionally very cold and distant to many people- something that wasn't always that way.

Many of us "cavemen" like it when the corps reaches beyond the fourth wall to us and communicates in an intimate or exciting way with brass and percussion. Can they do that with amplified vocals, electronically generated timbres (Sun Ra certainly could do it... I'm willing to see what can be done with some avant garde imagination in DCI instead of generally using it to digitally back up certain on-field sections or to use it to play anything faster than an eighth note for the brass...), and extended narrative? Perhaps. I've seen it done a couple of times that worked well and that I appreciated. A better question might be- does it need to do so through those mediums? Did the PR Conductors or the Spartacus character need to pontificate and narrarate about their inner thoughts and motivations out loud to the audience to help them better understand and appreciate their show in '08? Did they need a digital synthesizer as part of the musical program on order to make the music more effective?

Maybe I just ask too many questions for my own good. But please, don't label anyone who questions the need for many of these things as "old", "out of touch", "Obviously uneducated and unwashed" or "wishing for G-D Bugles and loud raucous noise all the time". It honks me off.

Some of you folks who just take what's dealt you and readily lap it all up without questioning it and try and beat down those who do need to watch the old British TV program "The Prisoner" as I did many years ago. It'll help you understand my thoughts on the activity a bit better.

"I am not a number- I am a Big Letter!!!"

Edited May 15, 2010 by BigW

[hotbeats645]

I am under 30, and I don't like it.

The way I see it, you could stop showing up and something might get done. Or, by not showing up, corps lose money and fold. Or, in order to keep the season going, they raise dues, and fewer people can afford to march. Corps fold. Or, only people who can pay the money will march, and quality of shows will deteriorate.

[MikeD]

I saw a marching band that had an electric violin solo and two of the students beat-boxed rather poorly along with it. Not making this up.

The thing is, though, is that I don't doubt that stuff like this can be done well - it just hasn't happened yet.

Not sure about the beat box stuff, but I've seen bands with all sorts of mcced instruments, some done well and some not, as with anything put on the field. I wrote a micced English horn solo into our show a couple of years back...it got a lot of positive feedback. OTOH, our micced 1st trumpet at USSBA Nats last fall ended up having his volume waaaay out of whack by accident, which really messed us up until I could get to the field and turn it off.