G- 7 Corps Qualification

[BRASSO]

I went back and did a little research to take a look how the G- 7 might feel if this proposal of theirs was made , not this year, but in previous years. I wonder how these G- 7 Corps would have reacted to their snub, where 7 Corps above them banded together to set the rules of engagement in competition. Here are the years when these current G-7 's would not have qualified. I wonder what their chances would have been back then to move up if something like this proposal now was adopted and put in place.

The Cadets : while a good Corps in the late 60's, The Cadets were never in the top 7 in the years 1972-1980 ( they were 19th in 1974 )

The Cavaliers : while one of the top Corps in the 60's, the Cavaliers were not in the top 7 in the years 1972-1975, nor from 1978- 1984. They finished 15th in 1973 and 16th in 1978.

Carolina Crown: from 1990 to 2003, ( 13 years ) Crown did not finish in the top 7, nor in 2006.

Phantom Regiment : Phantom did not finish in the top 7 from 1972-1975, and in 85, 86,.. in 92, 98,99... and last year.

SCV would not have qualified if the proposal was made in 2006 and it was based on the top 7 from previous year.

Bluecoats : from 1977- 1994 ( 17 years ) were not in the top 7.... nor in 1997-2001.

The Blue Devils would not be included if this proposal was made in 1974 ( and probably would then never had a chance to move up )

Star of Indiana : imagine if this proposal was made in 1985 or 1986. Star did not finish in the top 7 these years ( just starting out ). What would have been Star of Indiana's chances of moving up if the G-7 proposal was made in either 1985 or 1986 and they were excluded ?

And lets not forget that some of the excluded Corps in this 2010 proposal, ie Madison Scouts, Boston Crusaders, Troopers, Blue Stars come to mind, have ALL had years since their inception when they were not only in the top 7, but they were in the top 1-3 in the Country for awhile. What if they banded together in 1978 and excluded ( say ) the lowly placing Cadets with their proposal ? Do you think the Cadets would be ok with such a group slotting proposal back in 1978 if proposed ? ( not a chance .)

Look at the years above, and tell me if you think the Corps in the proposed G-7 would have supported such a divisive proposal in the years above when they were not considered then one of The 7 Beautiful People. You KNOW the answer to this. These Corps would have not liked it one bit. And their chances of moving up as they did in future years would likewise have been SIGNIFICANTLY compromised as well. And THAT's why fans and non G-7 Corps don't like this one bit now either. Thoughts ?

Edited May 23, 2010 by BRASSO

[CorpsFan.]

The price of admission is based on a 3 year average. And they are looking backwards to make sure that Phantom is included.

That would change a couple of your observations. But on the whole I agree with your point.

[SFZFAN]

I think we need several more G7 threads.

[C4T]

I think we need several more G7 threads.

I agree

[NYCFan]

I went back and did a little research to take a look how the G- 7 might feel if this proposal of theirs was made , not this year, but in previous years. I wonder how these G- 7 Corps would have reacted to their snub, where 7 Corps above them banded together to set the rules of engagement in competition. Here are the years when these current G-7 's would not have qualified. I wonder what their chances would have been back then to move up if something like this proposal now was adopted and put in place.

The Cadets : while a good Corps in the late 60's, The Cadets were never in the top 7 in the years 1972-1980 ( they were 19th in 1974 )

The Cavaliers : while one of the top Corps in the 60's, the Cavaliers were not in the top 7 in the years 1972-1975, nor from 1978- 1984. They finished 15th in 1973 and 16th in 1978.

Carolina Crown: from 1990 to 2003, ( 13 years ) Crown did not finish in the top 7, nor in 2006.

Phantom Regiment : Phantom did not finish in the top 7 from 1972-1975, and in 85, 86,.. in 92, 98,99... and last year.

SCV would not have qualified if the proposal was made in 2005 and it was based on the top 7 from previous year.

Bluecaoats : from 1977- 1994 ( 17 years ) were not in the top 7.... nor in 1997-2001.

The Blue Devils would not be included if this proposal was made in 1974 ( and probably would then never had a chance to move up )

Star of Indiana : imagine if this proposal was made in 1985 or 1986. Star did not fnish in the top 7 thse years ( just starting out ). What would have ben Star of Indiana's chances of moving up if the G-7 proposal was made in 1986 and they were excluded ?

And lets not forget that some of the excluded Corps in this 2010 proposal, ie Madison Scouts, Boston Crusaders, Troopers, Blue Stars come to mind, have ALL had years since their inception when they were not only in the top 7, but they were in the top 1-3 in the Country that year.

Look at the years above, and tell me if you think the Corps in the proposed G-7 would have supported such a divisive proposal in the years above when they were not considered then one of The 7 Beautiful People. You KNOW the answer to this. These Corps would have not liked it one bit. And their chances of moving up as they did in future years would likewise have been SIGNIFICANTLY compromised as well. And THAT's why fans and non G-7 Corps don't like this one bit now either. Thoughts ?

Exacty. The "top 7 " CHANGES, over time. And I'd argue tht the rate of change is accelerating, as the top-12, perhaps the top-15 are becoming much more competitive. It is cyclical.

Which then brings up the question of motives. Are the "current" top-7 simply trying to cement their primacy, by changing the rules? Is this a result of their feeling that they are slipping, and threatened by the newfound competition?

I'd say this is anti-competitive, and bad for the fans and the activity. We WANT there to be intense competition, and the sharpening and improvement of programs that results. We DON'T want an "annointed 7 " performing in some sanitized non-competition events (recall who keeps saying competiition is irrelevant, scores are irrelevant, keeps trying to reduce and/or marginalize the judges, etc; same person who presented this proposal?), which would take the "pageantry" (whatever that is!) concept to an extreme.

And then at the same time perpetuating themselves in place by cementing a recruiting advantage & monetary advantage for themselves.

Far better would be an effort to INCREASE the independence of the judges. and SPECIFY, openly & clearly, HOW all the new elements are being judged, both for credit and demerit, in the judging system. That way, fans can know the how, what & why involved, and increase their understanding of the process. Openness reduces suspicion.

Then couple this with a strictly merit system of judging, to ensure that corps can move up, instead of being "slotted" in advance.

THIS, IMHO, is where the effort & energy ought to be.

[luvs me sum mello!]

So that leaves how many years that these corps WERE in the top 7?

With the exception of Crown (based on the whole "history of excellence argument) all of these corps have shown great sustainability. I think that is more the point.

[Peel Paint]

I went back and did a little research to take a look how the G- 7 might feel if this proposal of theirs was made , not this year, but in previous years. I wonder how these G- 7 Corps would have reacted to their snub, where 7 Corps above them banded together to set the rules of engagement in competition. Here are the years when these current G-7 's would not have qualified. I wonder what their chances would have been back then to move up if something like this proposal now was adopted and put in place.

The G7 didn't appoint themselves to that position on the basis of being THE top 7 corps currently in score (obviously, given the 2009 finish). They saw themselves as The Act, the draw for ticket sales, the seven corps, right now, that people most want to see nationwide. And they're probably right about the seven corps that are the biggest ticket sale draw--right now.

IMO by that standard there's only one currently alive corps that can make the claim for having been a top ticket draw since the beginning of DCI, and that's SCV. Even when they fell out of the top seven, they were still likely top seven in ticket appeal while touring. The other six corps now claiming membership into this elite group had to work their way up to it, or work their way back into it, having fallen out of it. And obviously, the picture would have been different just a few years ago and throughout DCI's history. To lock these seven corps into this group and freeze it, and freeze everyone else out of it by creating a wall that never previously existed is fundamentally unfair, if you also give these seven corps the controlling votes on the board and the money they were seeking.

[Plan9]

I went back and did a little research to take a look how the G- 7 might feel if this proposal of theirs was made , not this year, but in previous years. I wonder how these G- 7 Corps would have reacted to their snub, where 7 Corps above them banded together to set the rules of engagement in competition. Here are the years when these current G-7 's would not have qualified. I wonder what their chances would have been back then to move up if something like this proposal now was adopted and put in place.

The Cadets : while a good Corps in the late 60's, The Cadets were never in the top 7 in the years 1972-1980 ( they were 19th in 1974 )

The Cavaliers : while one of the top Corps in the 60's, the Cavaliers were not in the top 7 in the years 1972-1975, nor from 1978- 1984. They finished 15th in 1973 and 16th in 1978.

Carolina Crown: from 1990 to 2003, ( 13 years ) Crown did not finish in the top 7, nor in 2006.

Phantom Regiment : Phantom did not finish in the top 7 from 1972-1975, and in 85, 86,.. in 92, 98,99... and last year.

SCV would not have qualified if the proposal was made in 2006 and it was based on the top 7 from previous year.

Bluecoats : from 1977- 1994 ( 17 years ) were not in the top 7.... nor in 1997-2001.

The Blue Devils would not be included if this proposal was made in 1974 ( and probably would then never had a chance to move up )

Star of Indiana : imagine if this proposal was made in 1985 or 1986. Star did not finish in the top 7 these years ( just starting out ). What would have been Star of Indiana's chances of moving up if the G-7 proposal was made in either 1985 or 1986 and they were excluded ?

And lets not forget that some of the excluded Corps in this 2010 proposal, ie Madison Scouts, Boston Crusaders, Troopers, Blue Stars come to mind, have ALL had years since their inception when they were not only in the top 7, but they were in the top 1-3 in the Country for awhile. What if they banded together to keep ( say ) the lowly placing Cadets out back then with their proposal ? Do you think the Cadets would be ok with such a slotting proposal back in 70's if proposed ? ( not a chance )

Look at the years above, and tell me if you think the Corps in the proposed G-7 would have supported such a divisive proposal in the years above when they were not considered then one of The 7 Beautiful People. You KNOW the answer to this. These Corps would have not liked it one bit. And their chances of moving up as they did in future years would likewise have been SIGNIFICANTLY compromised as well. And THAT's why fans and non G-7 Corps don't like this one bit now either. Thoughts ?

This is really what all this is about, isn't it, Brasso? Being left out! First of all, these are just names of corps, the people inside of them have changed dramatically (except maybe BD) over the years.

If you have a car company and it makes 20 different models of cars. And you have 4 or 5 that are keeping your company afloat (from sales) and you spend the lion share of the ad money on them and are consistently putting their images on ads about the company. I suppose the other models "teams" that are less attractive and are producing lower end sales might feel left out. But if you use the top sellers to keep the company open for business and afford the "other models" time to get better, my guess is that they would not be critical of the strategy.

You have a history of being level-headed on here, and it's a bit puzzling to me to see your attempt at creating a "classism" kind of wedge among corps that are ALL filled with hard working kids, busting their ### right now to give us their very best! Having no knowledge of all this crap! I just don't get it!

Edited May 23, 2010 by Plan9

[BRASSO]

So that leaves how many years that these corps WERE in the top 7?

With the exception of Crown (based on the whole "history of excellence argument) all of these corps have shown great sustainability. I think that is more the point.

Like heck. " More to the point " is that these Corps in their formative or off years would be significantly compromised in moving up the competitive ranks as they did.

It is the ABSENCE of any established group slotting and sub divisions in World Class Competitions that specfically allowed them the opportunity to move up. THAT'S the point you're missing. Had the field been stacked aganst them by the G-7's back them with such a proposal, the chances of some of them being the G-7s of today would be slim or none.

[markdewine]

Yeah, but since '72, the "elite" have been the top 12....NOT the top 7. Any corps that EVER made DCI's top 12 was an elite corps, and so, from a historical perspective, will always be considered a great corps.

Ya know.....every corps is proud of who they are; they all think they're great. And that's all fine....to a point.

It's just when the EGO MONSTER grows, and grows, and rears it's twelve ugly heads, and begins to devour what drum corps is REALLY all about......

Sad.....