Youtube has added to my confusion

[IllianaLancerContra]

Okay here's the skinny.

The activity started with ex WW1 military surplus G bugles, which were of pretty bad quality.

Sometime post WW2 or before, hopefully Ironlips or some more knowledgeable person can have an exact date... they went to G-D bugles, one piston valve. I have a couple, and they're also leaky and made badly, and for the love of God, I have trouble getting around on one. I likely need a Baritone, or have to go down in my parent's basement where they are kept and try working with one longer to get the feel.

They then went to Piston/Slide. The Piston set the bugle to F (what everyone would think of as 1st valve) and the left hand pulled out a slide for the F-Sharp, what would be the second valve. I've heard stories about tuning with those and the drift was on certain notes, you were supposed to "hit yourself in da face!!!!" when you pulled back on the slide.

If you are lucky, you might get to see Danny Fitzpatrick play one in DCA I and E, I was fortunate to have been there for one of his prformances. In the hands of someone like Danny, they're quite, quite, good instruments!

They then went to the Piston/rotor, where the rotor replaced the slide. Depending on the instrument and person you used the left thumb or index finger to work it. I used a thumb, which is supposedly incorrect, no one ever corrected me, and I can do 16th note runs on one (when the freakin' rotor WORKS! ), it's not that hard once you get used to the left-right thing...

Now here's the really interesting tidbit. Getzen, I believe built 2 piston Bugles in the late 60's for the Westshoremen and perhaps another senior corps (Maybe Reading!?). The valves were not placed like a normal trumpet, but were like the piston/rotor bugles, the valves facing back towards the musician! The instruments were outlawed after a season or two, very few still exist, I have seen one of them, it's not at the Cumberland County Historical Society in PA now being preserved. So, that innovation was nipped in the bud quickly.

Jim Fawber here knows more about this in detail. Hopefully he can fill in the blanks regarding these instruments for you.

Finally, you start to see the two valves as one would normally think of them in the late '70's, I know we at Westshore underwent a partial conversion in 1982 and did not have an all 2-piston line 'till 1983.

Personally, I am on the fence in regards to the G Bugles. I use a Kanstul in Alumni corps, and it takes a lot of practice and work to subdue the beast, though I must say when one gets it under your power it's very satisfying, though with other bugles, you can over-balance with it too easily.

From my perspective, whether B-Flat or not-- give me a reliable instrument with valves that will work, is easy to deal with in terms of intonation where I can lip it when I need to, one that is responsive and not a big honkin' woof-bag like some of the Yamaha marching Baris are, and also is light and well balanced, and I will be able to provide more than adequate baritone goodness in G or B-Flat. I hope a couple of the companies that build the horns read this- the best marching bari I have come across was the old 2-valve Kings like BD had in the early 80's that came closest to fitting this ideal.

I believe the odd arrangement of the 2-pistons was VFW rule stating overall instrument shape had to be that of a 'bugle' - no valves 'sticking up' to ruin the overall outline.

[76strad]

Just as a thought, since im only 17, I think it would be interesting to go to a live show and hear a G line in one of the top 8, just a thought.

[84BDsop]

Just as a thought, since im only 17, I think it would be interesting to go to a live show and hear a G line in one of the top 8, just a thought.

Go back in time to 1999 or 2000...the only place you'll hear a large corps on Gs now is DCA. Renegades come to mind.

[JimF-LowBari]

Jim Fawber here knows more about this in detail. Hopefully he can fill in the blanks regarding these instruments for you.

Yeah but all he can do is read notes and push the right buttons... errr valves. Also he happened to have been around so long ago that he played the 2 horizontal valves, piston/slide, piston/rotor, 2 valve and now 3 valves. OK only a few months on the first two until the new horns came in.

All I can add when the buglers wanted more notes a crook was added between the mouthpiece and horn (20s/30s) to get the first valve notes. So a horn played either the open or first valve notes. The first valve was added in the 1930s and was mounted horizontal so it looked like a valveless bugle (the hand hid the valve). Most(?) corps then played the horn with one hand and swung the other for GE. Interesting thing is the valves had a lock then so a horn could only play the open or first valve notes but not both in competitions. Reason was so the corps that could afford crooks but not valved horns would not be at a disadvantage. Post WWII the valves were "unlocked" and the first slides were actually handmade jobs as the players steel wooled the tuning slide so it can be used to play notes.

Baritones were added in the 30s and Contras in the early 60s. Ironlips and/or HornsUp could give details on the middle voice history.

Have some Baris I've found over the years and all just a blast to play.

PS - BigW will have to bring the 1930s Bari (with lock) over Saturday.

Edit: to OP - What did you think of the solos in "Legend" with the P/Rs?

Edited July 5, 2010 by JimF-LowBari

[ContraFart]

I can say with 100% certainty that G bugles will never be used again in junior corps. I think the timbre and intonation are more accessible to younger players, but the biggest reason is money. Its hard for instrument companies to translate G bugle design to a Bb horn that is going to be sold to high schools. These companies can partner with corps to create new ideas on bore sizes, piston durability, and fixing intonation issues on instruments that can be mass marketed. Also corps can get an entire new set of horns every year or every other year because these partnerships give the opportunity to buy at dirt cheap prices, and then resell the horns after the season to either break even or maybe even profit. This would be impossible to do with G horns. When I marched at the end of the G age, most corps could not afford to purchase a full line when upgrading instruments, and would usually upgrade by section. (I remember this with Magic buying new contras in '97, Glassmen marching with those 2 valve King contras until they switched to Bb, and BAC getting new contras in 1999.) Now world class corps can buy full matching lines that have the opportunity to create a much better sound than a mismatched line.

[ducttapedgerbil]

wow, that's really a surprise for me to find that out

you're serious aren't you?...... jeez, I thought corps nowadays were about "education", I guess that is all just lip-service.

[84BDsop]

I can say with 100% certainty that G bugles will never be used again in junior corps. I think the timbre and intonation are more accessible to younger players, but the biggest reason is money. Its hard for instrument companies to translate G bugle design to a Bb horn that is going to be sold to high schools. These companies can partner with corps to create new ideas on bore sizes, piston durability, and fixing intonation issues on instruments that can be mass marketed. Also corps can get an entire new set of horns every year or every other year because these partnerships give the opportunity to buy at dirt cheap prices, and then resell the horns after the season to either break even or maybe even profit. This would be impossible to do with G horns. When I marched at the end of the G age, most corps could not afford to purchase a full line when upgrading instruments, and would usually upgrade by section. (I remember this with Magic buying new contras in '97, Glassmen marching with those 2 valve King contras until they switched to Bb, and BAC getting new contras in 1999.) Now world class corps can buy full matching lines that have the opportunity to create a much better sound than a mismatched line.

But the strange thing is....a G soprano from Kanstul is LESS expensive than a comparable trumpet...$300-$400 less...go to their site and check their pricing. I;ll buy the lack of a future market for old Gs (although the Sr side took up that inventory....the switch to Bb made so many Gs avalilable that a lot of new Srs were able to crop up.)

[TrumpetJ]

you're serious aren't you?...... jeez, I thought corps nowadays were about "education", I guess that is all just lip-service.

Teaching kids about instruments that they never have and possibly never will play on seems like a waste of time to me. What good is teaching junior corps the days of the G bugle, when they are just going to go back to rehearsal on their b-flats after that?

[ContraFart]

But the strange thing is....a G soprano from Kanstul is LESS expensive than a comparable trumpet...$300-$400 less...go to their site and check their pricing. I;ll buy the lack of a future market for old Gs (although the Sr side took up that inventory....the switch to Bb made so many Gs avalilable that a lot of new Srs were able to crop up.)

True but you have to think of resale value

[BigW]

Teaching kids about instruments that they never have and possibly never will play on seems like a waste of time to me. What good is teaching junior corps the days of the G bugle, when they are just going to go back to rehearsal on their b-flats after that?

Most of what I learned about the older bugles was from Frank Dorritie when I was a kid at Westshore and he explained them to us during a practice when we needed to cool down the chops and loosen up our heads for a couple of minutes. Not hard to talk about something here and there- many old hands educated us kids back in the day about the past of the activity if one was willing to listen and show some respect to some of those guys- guys who are gone now, who I think of often in a good way, and really miss in my heart. I still go to a few of them that are left when I have questions. If you ever have the time to talk to a fellow named Bill Light with 5-Star Brass, he's a veritable warehouse of knowledge about things like this- Jim knows him too, we both marched with him- the problem is he's usually very busy at the shows he's at....