Pioneer vs. ?

[mvbailey12]

First off, I will state it, I am a Pioneer fan. I marched back in the day with them and like the organization.

I do have some questions, in which I would really like some honest opinions/facts/etc.

After hearing so much converstation about how Pioneer is moving in the right direction, and I would agree with them, just over thier announcements and from the buzz that I hear, why are they still sitting where they are?

Also, why do other corps, specifically in the same "rankings", get better scores?

There are newer corps, (i.e. Teal Sound) that have better scores in their first year of competition in World Class. How does this happen?

I know that seniority has nothing to do with this. I am just really curious as to what qualities, membership, priorities, talent, show design, etc., certain corps have or Pioneer hasn't had for a while.

I do not expect Pioneer to be beating Cavies or Phantom or BD (would be nice), but for the "same-level" corps, what or why do you think that this happens?

Please, no flaming Pio or other corps! Please keep this classy!

Edited July 9, 2010 by mvbailey12

[Northern Thunder]

I've been wondering the same thing for years!

[jwillis35]

Pioneer actually has a nice show this year. I like it. Saw them at Bowling Green and thought they were entertaining and very successful in pulling off their show.

Typically with a smaller corps, one with perhaps a bit more of a local flavor and membership, it can be difficult to beat corps that are more regional or national in terms of recruiting. The top corps, those that recruit primarily college students, get their talent from all over the country. So yes, it's unrealistic for a local corps with less money, facilities, popularity, and staff to compete with those national corps.

However, more to your point, in order for Pioneer to be more successful against the other World Class corps, they will have to install a better design and teaching base. Ultimately, it's not the kids. They have people joining. I am sure many of them are fairly talented, and some are really talented, but kids and kids and they can do amazing things if given the tools. Pioneer needs to find a way to give their members the tools to score better. This means better design, better teaching to affect performance, better staff to make sure that instruction is first rate, and they need to convince people in their area to support those goals.

This is not me saying they need to fire everyone and hire new people, it's me saying that those already doing this need to step it up if they wish to score higher and beat more corps. Competition can be brutal and very humbling. If the goal is just to entertain, then they are fine right now. I do like their show. But I also feel the design suffers, the techniques used in playing and marching are not great, and the show seems too hard. A corps like Pioneer should start slow, simple, and clean before they add more layers and demand. I haven't seen that. So if the goal is to compete, then you actually have to be better than someone in order to get a higher score. Not easy to do. It all comes down to DESIGN and TEACHING.

Just my 2 cents!

[HighBrass09]

Sadly they are probably slotted in that "last place" position which sucks...Pioneer is a great corps and work just as hard as everyone else. They are good!!

[Tom D'Bomb]

Pioneer actually has a nice show this year. I like it. Saw them at Bowling Green and thought they were entertaining and very successful in pulling off their show.

Typically with a smaller corps, one with perhaps a bit more of a local flavor and membership, it can be difficult to beat corps that are more regional or national in terms of recruiting. The top corps, those that recruit primarily college students, get their talent from all over the country. So yes, it's unrealistic for a local corps with less money, facilities, popularity, and staff to compete with those national corps.

However, more to your point, in order for Pioneer to be more successful against the other World Class corps, they will have to install a better design and teaching base. Ultimately, it's not the kids. They have people joining. I am sure many of them are fairly talented, and some are really talented, but kids and kids and they can do amazing things if given the tools. Pioneer needs to find a way to give their members the tools to score better. This means better design, better teaching to affect performance, better staff to make sure that instruction is first rate, and they need to convince people in their area to support those goals.

This is not me saying they need to fire everyone and hire new people, it's me saying that those already doing this need to step it up if they wish to score higher and beat more corps. Competition can be brutal and very humbling. If the goal is just to entertain, then they are fine right now. I do like their show. But I also feel the design suffers, the techniques used in playing and marching are not great, and the show seems too hard. A corps like Pioneer should start slow, simple, and clean before they add more layers and demand. I haven't seen that. So if the goal is to compete, then you actually have to be better than someone in order to get a higher score. Not easy to do. It all comes down to DESIGN and TEACHING.

Just my 2 cents!

So you're saying, "... if the goal is to compete, then you actually have to be better than someone in order to get a higher score."

Brilliant. Is this advice free, or should Roman send you a check?

[jwillis35]

So you're saying, "... if the goal is to compete, then you actually have to be better than someone in order to get a higher score."

Brilliant. Is this advice free, or should Roman send you a check?

Yeah, sounds obvious, but the point is that competing means understanding how the points are given, how to be in the game, how to perform at a higher level. Clearly the comment may rub you wrong or seem obvious, but also very clearly they are not scoring all that well, they are not beating a lot of corps, they always seem sloppy and unpolished, and the coordination of show is typically not great.

This is why I said design and teaching is what wins or at least helps a corps move up in standing. The OP wanted to know why they don't score high...well they lack in design and teaching. End of story.

Some people will say "well, Pioneer is better than a lot of corps and just not getting credit for it." That they are "being slotted." Sorry, don't buy it, never did. Judges can clearly see the level they are at, and their score is conducive of that level, which is typically low. This is not an insult, a slap in the face, or me just bashing, it's just the truth. So yeah, they don't beat other corps because they are not good enough to beat other corps. That will only change with better teaching and better design. Period!

[copyright]

First off, I will state it, I am a Pioneer fan. I marched back in the day with them and like the organization.

I do have some questions, in which I would really like some honest opinions/facts/etc.

After hearing so much converstation about how Pioneer is moving in the right direction, and I would agree with them, just over thier announcements and from the buzz that I hear, why are they still sitting where they are?

Also, why do other corps, specifically in the same "rankings", get better scores?

There are newer corps, (i.e. Teal Sound) that have better scores in their first year of competition in World Class. How does this happen?

I know that seniority has nothing to do with this. I am just really curious as to what qualities, membership, priorities, talent, show design, etc., certain corps have or Pioneer hasn't had for a while.

I do not expect Pioneer to be beating Cavies or Phantom or BD (would be nice), but for the "same-level" corps, what or why do you think that this happens?

Please, no flaming Pio or other corps! Please keep this classy!

I understand where you are coming from, I am an alum myself so I will always support and believe in the corps that allowed me to march.

By taking a look at other corps who I would call the "new old guys on the block" and most recently have made strides to become more competitive in a BIG way (Blue Stars, Troopers)

It takes an investment by the Board of Directors and the Executive Director to make this change happen.

I was having the same discussion with another FMM tonight - take a look at what other corps executive team's have done to ensure the COMPETITIVE success of the corps - hiring of storied program and music coordinators, consultants and designers, and a "team" of technicians who stick around, believe in the mission of the corps, and have a high placing world class history.

In regards to getting beat by Teal Sound, they are the new car that had a good first show, I know Pioneer usually get's a late start due to the many HS students that come in late so drill isn't put on the field until Everydays. So they play a little catchup in the preseason, but I think they've figured it out with the midseason schedule this past couple of years though.

This debate comes up about every 8 weeks, so if you don't hear what your waiting for this round, give it time.

[Grumpy]

I have only seen Pio on FN so far, they aren't touring this way so I won't get a chance to see them live until Indy-but here's my opinion, FWIW. I like the fact that they got away from the Irish music this year, and I found their show to be entertaining-more so than a couple of last year's finalists. I am by no means a musical expert, just know what I like and don't like. One thing that jumped out at me, was the guard-and not in a complimentary way. There were a fair number of equipment drops and some of the missed movements by different guard members had me thinking that they didn't know the drill that well. Not flaming, this is just what I got out of seeing them (don't remember which FN performance I was watching, but was NOT their debut show). For comparison sake, I saw Jersey Surf live this past weekend. Musically, I think they are about on par with Pio, but their drill and especially their guard executed much better (they should either get rid of the synth, or get somebody that knows how to run a sound board properly but that's a whole other discussion). Consequently, they seem to be scoring about 5-6 points higher, although with different judging panels-kind of like comparing where BD is scoring now compared with Crown, Cadets, Bluecoats. I'm not really into poring over recaps, but the problems in the guard HAVE to be affecting their visual and GE scores. I think the potential is there for them to get this show a lot cleaner by August; who knows they may SURPRISE some people.

[FHdork]

I saw them in BG as well - and I would echo jwillis, with this change: Corps succeed more when the staff have MORE time to work with the members. It's great to get your students from all over the world, but they often come both without drum corps experience, and without any psychological drum corps frame of reference (at least that's my guess).

Even with talented members, it takes time to mold oneself into the proper drum corps member - time that cannot be found, added, bought, or stolen once June rolls around. As a mentor once said, 'we have all the time there is'. Just so. Successful groups get the most out of the time that exists between November and August. Not even BD would succeed if they added untrained and inexperienced members in June.

Lastly - I said in my BG review that the show design is fine - it seems to push the members without being either out of their reach or (and this is the worst flaw...) not worth their time. I can't speak to the teaching except to say things sounded better in the early part of this season than they seemed to from Pio for a few years. I'd say that's good teaching.

[IllianaLancerContra]

Because they refuse to play the DCI game. They recruit mostly locally (plus in Africa!) and I understand now Mexico (!), but they are willing to teach from the basics up.

Personally, I think Drum Corps would be far better off w/ about 50 'Pioneer-type' corps, rather than the dozen and a half super corps we now have. The current model is not sustainable over the long run.