Pioneer vs. ?

[Lightness]

Because they refuse to play the DCI game. They recruit mostly locally (plus in Africa!) and I understand now Mexico (!), but they are willing to teach from the basics up.

Personally, I think Drum Corps would be far better off w/ about 50 'Pioneer-type' corps, rather than the dozen and a half super corps we now have. The current model is not sustainable over the long run.

My son said that Pioneer is the last teaching corps - now I understand what he meant!

The recruiting with Pacific Crest is similar - mostly home town - because it has to be. During the end of May when other "super corps" members are "moving in" and receiving four meals a day and housing, Pacific Crest is having practice every day, different locations (as far as 50 or more miles from Diamond Bar) and there is no food or over night lodging provided. So it's get up, drive to wherever practice is happening, bring money for lunch and dinner, go home late, sleep, and get up and do it all over again. It was not easy being a parent and trying to work and keep up with this schedule (my son marched with them in 2008 when he was 15). So in other words, you have to live locally or have the money for housing and transportation from the end of May to mid July when they officially leave on tour.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Lightness

[Lightness]

The three shows I watch on FN over and over again are:

Santa Clara Vanguard - because my son is marching with them this year.

Pacific Crest - because I love those kids!

and Pioneer - the video on a site we shall not name got me hooked on their music before the competitive season began!

[Ed from Kansas]

This is what I've sort of never understood. I've always felt that their willingness to educate from scratch was admirable, but feel that it doesn't coincide with the typical image associated with World Class corps. This type of mentality has always been synonymous with feeder corps, which, loyal members aside, may present a stigma as such for members who solely wish to get a year of experience before moving on. Whatever means necessary for them to survive as a corps (both financially AND in membership) is most important, but I just can't help but wonder how far they'll eventually get if they continue to recruit kids with no musical or marching experience whatsoever, as is claimed. Will potential members with actual experience and talent shy away from the corps knowing that they'll be marching with 10+% of the corps having no experience? It's not really a knock, but a legitimate question/concern.

This is exactly the situation the management and the kids, themselves, face today. I love Pioneer and what they do. My son, who is marching with them for the second year (age 16), loves the environment of the corps. That aside, however, Roman and the staff will have to make a decision about the future direction of Pioneer. They lose entirely too many kids each year to the upper echelon corps and the veterans that return get really frustrated because the don't move up in the standings.

Donny Allen is a tremendous arranger and teacher and I know that he wants the corps to better itself. I believe that they have taken the first step this year to do just that. If moving up the standings is what they decide they want to do, then they have to have better retention of the veterans and develop a mentality to be tough competitors.

I don't think anyone works harder than Pioneer. They go from 7:00am until 9-10:00pm virtually every day they are not traveling. So, there is no shortage of work ethic here. Many of the kids are extremely talented, just young and lacking in experience. Tough job for them to rise to the level of an upper echelon corps when at the beginning of the season many of the kids don't know their left foot from their right.

I applaud Pioneer for their commitment to the kids that want a chance but if they want to move up, they will have to change some things. Who knows what is the right thing for them? The staff and management have to make that decision. Based on that decision they will either become better or continue as they have been.

[MikeN]

Thanks to DCI's marching member survey, one thing that was noted is that the average marcher is 19 and marches 1-2 years. And as you move up the ladder, the average age goes up, as does the amount of previous corps experience.

What that suggests is that Pioneer (and some of the other lower placed corps) really have become a "training ground" for members as they move on to other corps.

I think what will have to change for the corps to move back up the ranks is either a heavy emphasis on recruiting older / more experienced marching members, or having a "perfect storm" sort of year where the kids overachieve on the field - and also are rewarded for it by the judges.

Mike

[BozzlyB]

First off, I will state it, I am a Pioneer fan. I marched back in the day with them and like the organization.

I do have some questions, in which I would really like some honest opinions/facts/etc.

After hearing so much converstation about how Pioneer is moving in the right direction, and I would agree with them, just over thier announcements and from the buzz that I hear, why are they still sitting where they are?

Also, why do other corps, specifically in the same "rankings", get better scores?

There are newer corps, (i.e. Teal Sound) that have better scores in their first year of competition in World Class. How does this happen?

I know that seniority has nothing to do with this. I am just really curious as to what qualities, membership, priorities, talent, show design, etc., certain corps have or Pioneer hasn't had for a while.

I do not expect Pioneer to be beating Cavies or Phantom or BD (would be nice), but for the "same-level" corps, what or why do you think that this happens?

Please, no flaming Pio or other corps! Please keep this classy!

Because Pioneer does not focus on placement, or make the competitive aspect of DC their top priority. I don't think this is any secret, and I'm not saying it is good or bad. Pioneer IMO offers a DC experience that is unique to them and sets them apart, and while that seems to create excellent experiences for their members, I do think it hampers them competitively.

[BozzlyB]

Lets not forget....Pioneer is a "TEACHING" corp. Many kids have never, ever played an instrument, marched or even speak english. Does it really matter about the score or the fact that Teal Sound comes out of the gate higher? No.....and whoever said it earlier is right.....there are MANY, MANY extremely talented members in Pioneer....that could march anywhere, but they choose not to for many, many reasons. Until you have been a part of what Pioneer is about, it is hard to make such comments. Remember, they just put in members from Mexico 3 days ago, who do not speak a word of English. Can you imagine teaching a drill to someone who dons't understand you! No, they are not as good as other corps and they know it. But, they work harder than any corps out there. Lets enjoy their show and hope Pioneer meets their goals this year, not those of us watching! No matter what is said, Pioneers show is awesome this year and I wish them all the best!

I agree, and I hope this post isn't taken the wrong way, but I sincerely think that is a function of necessity, not philosophy. Pioneer HAS to teach from the bottom up to fill their ranks as much as possibile. If 150 trained members showed up at first camp, Drum corps would have seen the end of "teaching corps". There is just no way they would deny a contract to an experienced marcher for the mere sake of "teaching" someone who's never held a horn before.

Edited July 26, 2010 by BozzlyB

[Ed from Kansas]

I agree, and I hope this post isn't taken the wrong way, but I sincerely think that is a function of necessity, not philosophy. Pioneer HAS to teach from the bottom up to fill their ranks as much as possibile. If 150 trained members showed up at first camp, Drum corps would have seen the end of "teaching corps". There is just no way they would deny a contract to an experienced marcher for the mere sake of "teaching" someone who's never held a horn before.

Read their web site, look at their history. They welcome everyone and I can tell you that this year some experienced kids got cut. Pioneer values desire, character and a strong work ethic over experience. I'm not saying it's right, I saying that's how they operate.

[ContraFart]

Here are a couple of observations I think contribute to Pioneers low scores

1. They do not field a full 150 members. Notice how the 3 corps who are not fielding a "full" corps are always near the bottom. This year Surf, Pioneer and Cascades are all about 110-120 members or smaller, and they are the corps most likely to finish in the bottom 3. I think that makes it harder to achieve the Box 4 and 5 rubrics on the world class sheet.

2. Since they are traditionally at or near the bottom, they always perform first at competitions. That means less rehearsal time. I think you can make a direct comparison from number of hours worked to level of success. Its not a direct correlation, but you get the gist.

Pioneer is a top notch organization who will take a kid who is greener than kermit, and make him or her a successful member of a drum corps.

[dbc03]

Read their web site, look at their history. They welcome everyone and I can tell you that this year some experienced kids got cut. Pioneer values desire, character and a strong work ethic over experience. I'm not saying it's right, I saying that's how they operate.

Why are they cutting anyone when they don't have a full corps?

I thought they would teach anyone

[PioneerWebmaster]

Why are they cutting anyone when they don't have a full corps?

I thought they would teach anyone

Cuts often times happen in the percussion area simply based on the number of positions available. Those people are offered the opportunity to march other sections, but someone who is dead set on playing snare probably isn't going to want to march 3rd baritone for the summer!

Edited July 26, 2010 by PioneerWebmaster