Minneapolis Corps Directors Meeting

[Rifuarian]

Who among us can't understand the drag of competition and of carrying 15 other corps on your back for such little in return? As a sometime show producer, I don't expect them to be able to continue doing this for much longer. I think there are many similarities between the way that Cirque du Soleil came to be and the way they carved out and built an audience for their product which was always understood to be NEW circus. I don't think they relied all that much on existing circus fans. They went after new, fresh minds and a more upscale audience hungry for new entertainment choices. Yet they were able to keep their product circus to the bone.

I see the top drum corps the same way --and whether they are G7 or whether it includes Madison and BS and BK and a few others is not all that important right now-- I think we can agree that we don't want them to become marching bands. We want them to remain DC to the core . . . but we also want them to make some money and if that means forming their own thing and leaving the competitive world to stage a new format in big stadiums, in big cities on summer weekends in front of new, fresh, receptive, appreciative audiences, I FOR ONE SAY, IT'S ABOUT TIME. THEY DESERVE TO BE RECOGNIZED BY THE MASSES FOR ALL THEIR HARD WORK TO THIS POINT. AND IF IT LOOKS LIKE DC AND SOUNDS LIKE DC AND SMELLS LIKE DC . . . . BY GOD, IT WILL STILL BE DC.

As for guys on here arguing about 3/10's of a point for last night's score in Color Guard VISUAL GE or some such nonsense . . . FORGETT'ABOUT IT!

Finally. I live in the Twin Cities --a good dry cleanin' town . . . did you know that one week after the DCI @TCF Stadium rainout was held, 90,000 people showed up for the first-ever Red Bull FlueTag (outdoor) contest to be held here? Very little media promotion was done. Reportedly 7,000 tickets sold for DCI. One week later, 90,000 people attend Red Bull FlueTag.

Do you see what I mean when I say people are starving for new, fresh entertainment ideas? How many of you even know what FlueTag is? I must admit, I didn't, until I saw the coverage FOLLOWING the event. It encouraged me that 90,000 are willing to hop in the car to go see something new, even as it turns out, they might not be able to get close enough to actually see it.

First, I don't think you are a troll. I do think you are naive about the realities facing drum corps, but you seem to feel the same way about us. So it all works out. Please continue participating in the conversation . . . it's good to have different perspectives. I also don't believe you're Hopkins. Your spelling and grammar are too good.

In spite of the talk about the G7 "carrying the other corps on their backs", this has never been demonstrated to be a fact. The G7 already receive significant -- and deserved -- advantages in terms of pay, housing, marketing exposure, etc. As far as I'm concerned, DCI gives back to corps in proportion to what they put in in terms of audience draw. I've been waiting for those who have labeled to the current system "revenue sharing" or "socialism" or whatever to demonstrate that this is truly the case. That includes the G7 itself, which made this claim without reinforcing it.

As for what you're proposing: If such a thing were possible, it would great. Seeing drum corps introduced to vast new audiences would be a dream come true for myself and many others. Unfortunately, I am dubious about the potential appeal of marching band (this is what your new audiences would call it, there's no avoiding that) as compared to already established entertainments like the circus, and action-based spectacles like the Flugtag (which will always wide appeal, no matter how weird or new they might be). I fail to see how simply grouping the the best drum corps together and dropping competition would attract anyone that drum corps hasn't already attracted. It may appeal to you, as you've associated with drum corps in the past, but how would you sell marching band to an entirely virgin audience? Say you had 30 seconds to convince a complete to stranger to attend one of these shows . . . what would you say?

Personally, I feel it's impossible for a drum corps to do what you're advocating without completing transforming itself. Like it or not, BLAST! is the best example of this. The show ran for many years in many cities, picked up some prestigious awards, and made a fair amount of money. Unfortunately, it was a one-off success riding on the coat-tails of STOMP's popularity. A success which Mason and Co. have been unable to duplicate. Now they're back in the world of drum corps, with a different corps. Meanwhile, the incredible organization they began with -- Star of Indiana -- which over several decades could have afforded thousands of opportunities to march, won numerous championships, and improved and strengthened the world of drum corps in ways we'll never know has all but evaporated. The BLAST! website hasn't been updated in over a year.

The story of BLAST!/SoI is relevant to this situation. While the path this organization took is different from the one you've envisioned for the G7, it is still the the foremost example of what happens to a successful group when it leaves the world of competitive drum corps, and I believe this example is very much present in the minds of the G7 directors when they contemplate leaving DCI (if they've even truly done so . . . I'm not sure they have) Star was only 8 years old when it departed, so the outcome of its story does not seem as tragic. But many of the G7 directors are stewards of organizations that are more than a half-century old. They don't want a decade of glory followed by oblivion, which is what Star/BLAST! had. They don't want the tremendous risks involved in what you've proposed. They don't want to gamble with the futures of their organizations chasing the hopeless dream of mass appeal. Leaving the DCI safety net is frightening . . . they'd rather stay in and twist it to their own advantage. This is, I believe, why the G7 directors would be as cool, and dubious, about your vision as we have been. Not to mention the fact that these directors are, to a man, ferociously competitive, as are the people work for them, and the members of their corps.

Your ideas are unique, and I'm glad you've shared them. It is easy to bash DCP's "groupthink" for being unreceptive and out of touch, but I'm afraid you'd face a similar rejection if you brought these ideas up with the G7. Except the reaction might not be so polite.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Rifuarian

[BRASSO]

First, I don't think you are a troll. I do think you are naive about the realities facing drum corps, but you seem to feel the same way about us. So it all works out. Please continue participating in the conversation . . . it's good to have different perspectives. I also don't believe you're Hopkins. Your spelling and grammar are too good.

In spite of the talk about the G7 "carrying the other corps on their backs", this has never been demonstrated to be a fact. The G7 already receive significant -- and deserved -- advantages in terms of pay, housing, marketing exposure, etc. As far as I'm concerned, DCI gives back to corps in proportion to what they put in in terms of audience draw. I've been waiting for those who have labeled to the current system "revenue sharing" or "socialism" or whatever to demonstrate that this is truly the case. That includes the G7 itself, which made this claim without reinforcing it.

As for what you're proposing: If such a thing were possible, it would great. Seeing drum corps introduced to vast new audiences would be a dream come true for myself and many others. Unfortunately, I am dubious about the potential appeal of marching band (this is what your new audiences would call it, there's no avoiding that) as compared to already established entertainments like the circus, and action-based spectacles like the Flugtag (which will always wide appeal, no matter how weird or new they might be). I fail to see how simply grouping the the best drum corps together and dropping competition would attract anyone that drum corps hasn't already attracted. It may appeal to you, as you've associated with drum corps in the past, but how would you sell marching band to an entirely virgin audience? Say you had 30 seconds to convince a complete to stranger to attend one of these shows . . . what would you say?

Personally, I feel it's impossible for a drum corps to do what you're advocating without completing transforming itself. Like it or not, BLAST! is the best example of this. The show ran for many years in many cities, picked up some prestigious awards, and made a fair amount of money. Unfortunately, it was a one-off success riding on the coat-tails of STOMP's popularity. A success which Mason and Co. have been unable to duplicate. Now they're back in the world of drum corps, with a different corps. Meanwhile, the incredible organization they began with -- Star of Indiana -- which over several decades could have afforded thousands of opportunities to march, won numerous championships, and improved and strengthened the world of drum corps in ways we'll never know has all but evaporated. The BLAST! website hasn't been updated in over a year.

The story of BLAST!/SoI is relevant to this situation. While the path this organization took is different from the one you've envisioned for the G7, it is still the the foremost example of what happens to a successful group when it leaves the world of competitive drum corps, and I believe this example is very much present in the minds of the G7 directors when they contemplate leaving DCI (if they've even truly done so . . . I'm not sure they have) Star was only 8 years old when it departed, so the outcome of its story does not seem as tragic. But many of the G7 directors are stewards of organizations that are more than a half-century old. They don't want a decade of glory followed by oblivion, which is what Star/BLAST! had. They don't want the tremendous risks involved in what you've proposed. They don't want to gamble with the futures of their organizations chasing the hopeless dream of mass appeal. Leaving the DCI safety net is frightening . . . they'd rather stay in and twist it to their own advantage. This is, I believe, why the G7 directors would be as cool, and dubious, about your vision as we have been. Not to mention the fact that these directors are, to a man, ferociously competitive, as are the people work for them, and the members of their corps.

Your ideas are unique, and I'm glad you've shared them. It is easy to bash DCP's "groupthink" for being unreceptive and out of touch, but I'm afraid you'd face a similar rejection if you brought these ideas up with the G7. Except the reaction might not be so polite.

All great points, imo... At the end of the day, I don't think the G-7 or some combination of Corps will decide to leave DCI unless they felt that they could not survive finacially anymore in DCI. And for the very reasons you cited here in these comments. The Devil you know is better than the Devil you don't know. Good bad or indifferent, some of these G-7 Corps have lasted between 35- 75 years. As you said, "Blast" had a good run for about a decade. I don't think any of these historic Corps are going to take a leap into the Great Beyond to have, at best, a 10 year run and then maybe disappear when the ultimate novelty of their traveling cadre of unique marching Corpsbands wears off. But who knows, maybe they take that leap... we'll see.

Edited July 28, 2010 by BRASSO

[Martin I. Zing]

While I don't agree that the G7/6/whatever striking off on their own is good for the activity, it should be noted that "making a boatload of cash for the corps directors and all the staff" is hardly the motivating factor.

Rather it seems that the corps managers are getting concerned that they've been working to keep together a world class product on the field and getting relative chump change for the effort via performance fees. You can barely hire a good 70s cover band to play a reception in a major market for $2,000, but these guys are rolling into town with a caravan of busses and trucks and 170-200 people, and getting barely more than the $2k for all the effort. Bluntly, were I an outside funding agency, looking at a major corps' numbers, I'd be disinclined to support them with grant money primarily because they receive so little money for their work, making them less sturdy, financially, than they could be.

(For background, I have 20 years of managing non-profit arts organizations in a major market, and one of the things that any funder wants to see is your ratio of earned to contributed income; most drum corps' numbers are scarily out of whack when it comes to the 'earned' portion of their budgets.)

There should be some sort of mechanism by which any corps (note "any" corps") that has unique market value should be able to reap some of the windfall that comes from their own efforts. While I'd still prefer to see the performance guarantee turned into a performance minimum (allowing every corps to negotiate their own fee from the show sponsor), giving corps the chance to work together to produce some special events outside of the regular touring schedule doesn't seem THAT drastic a change.

Thank you! Oh sincerely Thank you! At last, someone who speaks, thinks and understands the real world on this discussion. I admit, that I haven't given much thought to the business side of DC for the last 40 years, but I had cause to take a more serious look at it recently and what I saw was very sad indeed. I agree with you. I don't see what keeps it afloat and I can't see it lasting much longer. In my opinion, it is a house of cards. And when I hear the stories about the balding tires on the busses and the handful of people buying tickets at Allentown --supposedly one of the meccas of DC, I know the end must be near. Finally, when I visited a couple of shows within the past few months in-person and then started to talk to a few people and read some posts on this website, I came to the conclusion that you did. And that is, these people are worn out from chasing across the country for a couple thousand dollars. What is wrong with this picture?

I also know more about the BLAST/Star of Indiana experiment than I first pretended and when I first suggested it was a failure on here I was abruptly slapped in the face. So I chose to tone down my style and simple show the "old school" on board here that one way and one way only of looking at and presenting DC to the vast public was NOT the ONLY way of doing it.

There in fact is a recent example of a mature entertainment industry (i.e., circus) that re-invented itself with great success. But they did not try to be all things to all people. Instead, they chose to BE BIGGER and AIM HIGHER to develop a new and more elite and upscale audience willing to pay more for essentially the same product that has been re-packaged.

THE GOONS AND DROONS ON HERE EITHER CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS COULD WORK IN THE WORLD OF DRUM CORPS OR BE APPLIED TO THEIR BELOVED "CRAFT" OR THEY REFUSE CHANGE BECAUSE THEY FEAR THAT THEIR FAVORITE CORPS MAY NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE THE NEW CUT. Either way, it faces ongoing resistance in this discussion. But that is OK. I understand this. Change is never easy.

But I do want to thank MOBRIEN for your comments. You like me, appreciate that the signs are evident that --at least among the top corps, they are sending up the white flag signalling that changes need to be made SOON if things are to continue. Call it G7 or whatever you want. IN MY MIND, THEY HAVE ANNOUNCED THAT THEY CAN NO LONGER TRAVEL THE COUNTRY ON BALD TIRES FOR $2000 PER SHOW. I don't know how they can make it any clearer other than to come right out and say it and if they said it out loud, it would sound something like this . . . .

If Spirit, Pioneer and Colts get paid $2000 to be in that show, it will cost you $10,000 each to have the Cadets, Blue Devils or Cavaliers there.

There! I've said it! Does that make you feel warm inside parents and sponsors of Spirit, Pioneer and Colts? How is the morale now on your team?

Now do you see what a problem this can be? Wouldn't it be better to let them go and do their own shows in major markets on prime weekend dates and keep the money? Finally, do you understand what a drag it is to haul 15 of the other corps on your back all summer long? Yes. It agree when put this bluntly, it sounds rude and arrogant. But where does fairness enter the equation and discussion?

Again, Thank you mobrien for being honest with us.

Goodnight!

[GMichael1230]

ugh....

G

[mobrien]

No offense, Zingster, but that was kinda weird...

Look, eventually, the drum corps industry (which is what it is) will have to figure out how to promote collective growth while still giving the individual corps the ability to max out their performance revenues. For a typical non-profit theatre or music organization, funders expect that 50 to 60% of revenues will come through performance fees or other earned revenues - in the case of most of the major corps, that number is closer to 25% - 45%, and that's AFTER t-shirt sales are figured in.

Again, my sense is that the best path would be to allow corps to negotiate with sponsors (or with groups of sponsors who could band together) to maximize their value in the market, which would allow the most popular corps to leverage their popularity and give impetus to some of the lower ranking corps to come up with ways to make themselves more popular, hopefully via more interesting programming choices. In a lot of ways, allowing the corps to use performance fees as a means of keeping score would help supplant the current metric of competition scores as being the scale by which corps consider themselves "successful" or not. If Pioneer or Crossmen can come up with a consistent persona that makes them even more fun to watch and more popular, then leveraged performance fees would give them a way to capitalize on the work they do to get there.

Going off to start a whole new form of drum corps seems like overkill, when there are simpler means toward that end.

Edited July 28, 2010 by mobrien

[Rifuarian]

If Spirit, Pioneer and Colts get paid $2000 to be in that show, it will cost you $10,000 each to have the Cadets, Blue Devils or Cavaliers there.

There! I've said it! Does that make you feel warm inside parents and sponsors of Spirit, Pioneer and Colts? How is the morale now on your team?

Now do you see what a problem this can be? Wouldn't it be better to let them go and do their own shows in major markets on prime weekend dates and keep the money? Finally, do you understand what a drag it is to haul 15 of the other corps on your back all summer long? Yes. It agree when put this bluntly, it sounds rude and arrogant. But where does fairness enter the equation and discussion?

Again, Thank you mobrien for being honest with us.

They're already being told this, and their morale is great! :thumbup: Again, the appearance fee is but the tip of the iceberg when you examine the full range of benefits these groups deservedly receive renegotiated appearance feesfrom DCI compared to lower ranking corps! :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: That's why they, the goons and droons at the G7 corps who do not understand how their groups will survive in the "real world", want to stay in DCI! Even if they wanted I don't think other corps would have much of a problem -- they've been renegotiated before, but instead they want to utterly transform DCI to suit their needs, and their needs only! If they left DCI and did their own thing, all would be hunky-dory! :thumbup: :inlove:

But they have no intention of doing anything remotely resembling what you want them to do.

If you're a troll, then consider me thoroughly trolled.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Rifuarian

[BRASSO]

I also know more about the BLAST/Star of Indiana experiment than I first pretended and when I first suggested it was a failure on here I was abruptly slapped in the face. So I chose to tone down my style and simple show the "old school" on board here that one way and one way only of looking at and presenting DC to the vast public was NOT the ONLY way of doing it.

.

THE GOONS AND DROONS ON HERE EITHER CAN'T UNDERSTAND .

. . .

There! I've said it! Does that make you feel warm inside parents and sponsors of Spirit, Pioneer and Colts? How is the morale now on your team?

. It agree when put this bluntly, it sounds rude and arrogant. But where does fairness enter the equation and discussion?

Goodnight!

I'm comforted to know you were just doing " pretend "... and that you then decided to " tone down your style" by calling out those who might disagree with you as " GOONS AND DROONS. (I have no idea what a " droon " is, by the way)

I'm going to do some " pretend ' too Zing. I'm going to " pretend " that you are joking, and this is all a goof.

[Jeff Ream]

Thank you! Oh sincerely Thank you! At last, someone who speaks, thinks and understands the real world on this discussion. I admit, that I haven't given much thought to the business side of DC for the last 40 years, but I had cause to take a more serious look at it recently and what I saw was very sad indeed. I agree with you. I don't see what keeps it afloat and I can't see it lasting much longer. In my opinion, it is a house of cards. And when I hear the stories about the balding tires on the busses and the handful of people buying tickets at Allentown --supposedly one of the meccas of DC, I know the end must be near. Finally, when I visited a couple of shows within the past few months in-person and then started to talk to a few people and read some posts on this website, I came to the conclusion that you did. And that is, these people are worn out from chasing across the country for a couple thousand dollars. What is wrong with this picture?

I also know more about the BLAST/Star of Indiana experiment than I first pretended and when I first suggested it was a failure on here I was abruptly slapped in the face. So I chose to tone down my style and simple show the "old school" on board here that one way and one way only of looking at and presenting DC to the vast public was NOT the ONLY way of doing it.

There in fact is a recent example of a mature entertainment industry (i.e., circus) that re-invented itself with great success. But they did not try to be all things to all people. Instead, they chose to BE BIGGER and AIM HIGHER to develop a new and more elite and upscale audience willing to pay more for essentially the same product that has been re-packaged.

THE GOONS AND DROONS ON HERE EITHER CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW THIS COULD WORK IN THE WORLD OF DRUM CORPS OR BE APPLIED TO THEIR BELOVED "CRAFT" OR THEY REFUSE CHANGE BECAUSE THEY FEAR THAT THEIR FAVORITE CORPS MAY NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH TO MAKE THE NEW CUT. Either way, it faces ongoing resistance in this discussion. But that is OK. I understand this. Change is never easy.

But I do want to thank MOBRIEN for your comments. You like me, appreciate that the signs are evident that --at least among the top corps, they are sending up the white flag signalling that changes need to be made SOON if things are to continue. Call it G7 or whatever you want. IN MY MIND, THEY HAVE ANNOUNCED THAT THEY CAN NO LONGER TRAVEL THE COUNTRY ON BALD TIRES FOR $2000 PER SHOW. I don't know how they can make it any clearer other than to come right out and say it and if they said it out loud, it would sound something like this . . . .

If Spirit, Pioneer and Colts get paid $2000 to be in that show, it will cost you $10,000 each to have the Cadets, Blue Devils or Cavaliers there.

There! I've said it! Does that make you feel warm inside parents and sponsors of Spirit, Pioneer and Colts? How is the morale now on your team?

Now do you see what a problem this can be? Wouldn't it be better to let them go and do their own shows in major markets on prime weekend dates and keep the money? Finally, do you understand what a drag it is to haul 15 of the other corps on your back all summer long? Yes. It agree when put this bluntly, it sounds rude and arrogant. But where does fairness enter the equation and discussion?

Again, Thank you mobrien for being honest with us.

Goodnight!

name calling always helps you prove your point. As I'll be in Allentown, I'll let you know how bad business is there...from what I've been told it's booming.

Howver...i mentioned this before and you chose to ignore me. I'l try again...the 3 C's ran their shows, with some of the trappings in June. Know what paid attendance was in Allentown? 1,800 people. Now, don't you think a heavily promoted show, especially locally in a community that is swarming with marching bands in 3 different circuits, would have turned out for it? it was advertised all over the place down there...I saw stuff for it in April.

1800 people showed up.

I think right there proves you wrong.

[Jeff Ream]

They're already being told this, and their morale is great! Again, the appearance fee is but the tip of the iceberg when you examine the full range of benefits these groups deservedly receive renegotiated appearance feesfrom DCI compared to lower ranking corps! That's why they, the goons and droons at the G7 corps who do not understand how their groups will survive in the "real world", want to stay in DCI! Even if they wanted I don't think other corps would have much of a problem -- they've been renegotiated before, but instead they want to utterly transform DCI to suit their needs, and their needs only! If they left DCI and did their own thing, all would be hunky-dory!

But they have no intention of doing anything remotely resembling what you want them to do.

If you're a troll, then consider me thoroughly trolled.

[corpsband]

name calling always helps you prove your point. As I'll be in Allentown, I'll let you know how bad business is there...from what I've been told it's booming.

Howver...i mentioned this before and you chose to ignore me. I'l try again...the 3 C's ran their shows, with some of the trappings in June. Know what paid attendance was in Allentown? 1,800 people. Now, don't you think a heavily promoted show, especially locally in a community that is swarming with marching bands in 3 different circuits, would have turned out for it? it was advertised all over the place down there...I saw stuff for it in April.

1800 people showed up.

I think right there proves you wrong.

I don't think the 3Cs show was a trial balloon at all. I think it was more a matter of "we've only got 3 corps committed to this date -- how can we possibly pitch a show with 3 corps?".

Had their been 7 or 8 corps attendance would have been much better.

If those 7 or 8 corps were scheduled 2 or 3 weeks later attendance would have been better yet.

So I think you're making way too much of the 3Cs shows.