BD's Beating the Field by 2 Points

[WestCoaster]

1988 will never leave my memory either........to see a corps with the hands down best musical show with absolutely no visual program whatsoever............no wonder they lost.

Flame away. It's OK with me, I got the brunt of it JOINING BD in 89 after kicking their ##### in 88. I might as well get SOME mileage out of the lumps I've already taken.

You didn't win either, my friend.

Heck, you didn't even beat em on Friday.

[supersop]

I always find it interesting in BD threads where the homers come in and read the last page and reduce the entire thread to cliches. There's a great deal of information about 4-6 pages back with detailed examples about how the captions are being judged (in turn, you can sum it up to BD bashing if you want to look at it that way ... we can't stop you). Nowhere have I seen any one liners about "their show is easier"/"They write to the sheets" et al. Not until this last page. You can reduce it down to those comments if you choose to do so and put on the blinders toward what is really being said here. That's fine. Thanks for posting and enjoy your DCP.

Edited July 27, 2010 by supersop

[WestCoaster]

I always find it interesting in BD threads where the homers come in and read the last page and reduce the entire thread to cliches. There's a great deal of information about 4-6 pages back with detailed examples about how the captions are being judged (in turn, you can sum it up to BD bashing if you want to look at it that way ... we can't stop you). Nowhere have I seen any one liners about "their show is easier"/"They write to the sheets" et al. Not until this last page. You can reduce it down to those comments if you choose to do so and put on the blinders toward what is really being said here. That's fine. Thanks for posting and enjoy your DCP.

I was just giving examples from other threads, bro. Are you saying all that stuff ISN'T said all the time around here?

[ajwdad]

Yeah, right now, they are that much better. But time has a way of collapsing things in DCI...

[ajwdad]

Punished ... no. Scored accurately using common sense on how the GE sheets should be weighed........... YES.

Using the inverse of my statements does not make yours true. You're just receiving my words in the negative rather than reading them at face value.

Allowing: The judges are in fact allowing choppy, forced musical presentations in order to achieve and enhance the visual elements of the show. This is clearly where they are putting weight on the Caption. They are ALLOWING this type of arranging to be reward, which in turn, means they are encouraging others to do the same. They are weighing the elements in the complete opposite of what is natural .... opposite of what excites the majority of fan$ in the stands ... opposite of the original music materials intent in most cases. I think allowing is a fair term. I could have said FORCING ... or PUSHING ... but allowing is more accurate at this point. Maybe the other two words better apply ... I don't know because I'm not sitting in with the chief judge or head judge of Music GE when they train or decide what gets more weight in elements over another. But it's pretty clear to most knowledgeable fans and educators that the weight of elements is the inverse of what it should be. If that should impact ANY corps score in that caption .. so be it.

Hi Supersop,

In general, i stay out of the music arguments as they are entirely subjective. Who was better, Meatloaf or Frampton? What is better, Jazz or neo-classical? Where I do understand your consternation is when music that is clearly not written for Drum Corp gets chopped into segments that fit into a show. Last year, I heard a snippet of the Boxer, certainly not nearly enough to do justice to the actual song or its original intent, but clearly out of context with the actual meaning of the song. No offense, but that snippet worked in my opinion. However, I don't think that it is practical for Drum Corps to use music only intended for drum corp. I know that is not what you are stating, but if I take the entire logic out to its conclusion, I am left with either changing the visual to fit the existing music, or changing the music to fit the visuals. Frankly, I am not sure that either makes perfect sense.

Finally, I think that what is being judged is the actual performance as opposed to the arranger or composer. Perhaps that is what really upsets the more musically pure or less musically tolerant. Either way, this subject appears to be almost entirely subjective. At least with Visual, we can point to very specific, agreed upon standards. But with Music, the level of subjectivity boggles the mind. What is better, Ott's version of the Navy Hymn, or Michael Jackson's Beat IT. The world certainly has chosen the latter. Frankly, my subjective opinion is that almost anything played with a horn is better that MJ's beat it.

thanks for listening.

[cajal]

Every year, the Devils don't march (chairs, scatter drill) or play (choppy arrangements, no melody.. er, insert other complaint here). This year sets a new high (low?) water mark, the Devs don't play OR march according to DCP.

Somehow I'm able to enjoy their show anyway.

[Plan9]

It's not really that groundbreaking when it borrows heavily from WGI, which is something a number of corps have done over the years . . .BD included.

The "angst" you speak of has little to do with people not wanting a paradigm shift in design, and everything to do with the insular nature of pageantry arts design that, in fact, stifles creativity for the most part.

I just saw this Bawker...and it might be the most intuitive statement I've ever read on DCP. It honestly gives me a better understanding of what I've been arguing against for 3 years. You are wise.

As far as my incessant drum drumming on innovation and BD design, that is just my short-lived perspective (4 years of DCI / 8 years with marching arts). But having said that, you would have to admit that mirrors have been around for centuries and no one ever used them the way BD has on the field this year. I'm sure other drum corps designers said (when they first saw their show)...."Well Duh!!! I can't believe I didn't think of that!" (yes, I know...WGI!)

Again, I really appreciate your insight, it helps me understand the nature of the DCI creative environment.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Plan9

[supersop]

Hi Supersop,

In general, i stay out of the music arguments as they are entirely subjective. Who was better, Meatloaf or Frampton? What is better, Jazz or neo-classical? Where I do understand your consternation is when music that is clearly not written for Drum Corp gets chopped into segments that fit into a show. Last year, I heard a snippet of the Boxer, certainly not nearly enough to do justice to the actual song or its original intent, but clearly out of context with the actual meaning of the song. No offense, but that snippet worked in my opinion. However, I don't think that it is practical for Drum Corps to use music only intended for drum corp. I know that is not what you are stating, but if I take the entire logic out to its conclusion, I am left with either changing the visual to fit the existing music, or changing the music to fit the visuals. Frankly, I am not sure that either makes perfect sense.

Finally, I think that what is being judged is the actual performance as opposed to the arranger or composer. Perhaps that is what really upsets the more musically pure or less musically tolerant. Either way, this subject appears to be almost entirely subjective. At least with Visual, we can point to very specific, agreed upon standards. But with Music, the level of subjectivity boggles the mind. What is better, Ott's version of the Navy Hymn, or Michael Jackson's Beat IT. The world certainly has chosen the latter. Frankly, my subjective opinion is that almost anything played with a horn is better that MJ's beat it.

thanks for listening.

It's always fun to step out of your comfort zone and weigh in on the sticky stuff. And I applaud you for your insight and comparisons to difference genre's of music, their interpretation, etc.

I do want to focus on the part that I highlighted. The purists/old-schoolers/whathaveyou, will side with Music First, Visual Second. I am one of those people and always will be. Without the music, all you would have is silent drill, jazz running and choreography. I can see where a visual transition might call for adding a few bars here and there, but when an entire show is centralized around the visual first ...... there you have your problem. This was something that the Cavaliers started in the early 2000's and to a degree (a steep one) BD is now playing this game as well.

So I'll go back to the sheets and post the disciplines again, reiterate where I feel there should be weight, and show that the judges are consistently rewarding the elements that I (and a large percentage of others ... a number that I can NOT quantify) would agree should be the main emphasis of the Music GE Caption. As I have stated many times in this thread, I have nothing but HIGH praise for BD in all other captions and feel they completely deserve the marks they are getting in all other areas. So here it is ......

MUSIC EFFECT

EFFECTIVENESS OF THE REPERTOIRE

• COORDINATION

• PACING

• CONCEPT

• INTERPRETATION OF THE MUSIC

• TENSION/RELEASE

• IMPACT AND CLIMAXES

• AESTHETIC/INTELLECTUAL/EMOTIONAL QUALITIES

• CREATIVITY AND ORIGINALITY

MAXIMUM

TOTAL 200

MUSIC EFFECT

As it pertains to the caption as written ........ there needs to be some weight to certain sub categories in order for the scoring to be more accurate. INTERPRETATION OF THE MUSIC should be a biggy. Followed by CONCEPT, PACING and COORDINATION. THe rest are givens. IF those 4 elements are done properly .. the rest happens by itself. If they dont' happen by themselves, then the source material was a bad choice or the talent of the arrangers and designers should be in question.

Again, I feel this is a judging situation. End of story. They're rewarding the wrong things and setting a bad example for the entire activity .... especially when they're rewarding what is not Aesthetically pleasing to the paying fan$.

So, I'm clearly stating that I feel the judges are given equal or greater weight to the other disciplines of GE criteria.

• TENSION/RELEASE

• IMPACT AND CLIMAXES

• AESTHETIC/INTELLECTUAL/EMOTIONAL QUALITIES

• CREATIVITY AND ORIGINALITY

Where the scale really tips, and I have it in my top 4 disciplines is COORDINATION. As described on the sheets, "

• Displays effective COORDINATION BETWEEN THE MUSICAL AND VISUAL ELEMENTS"

I truly feel this holds more weight in the judges minds than anything else on the sheet. But I also feel that within that framework, the value TENSION/RELEASE, IMPACT AND CLIMAXES, AESTHETIC BLAH BLAH BLAH moreso than the core elements that truly makes the MUSIC EFFECTIVE.

Again, those are the INTERPRETATION OF MUSIC, CONCEPT and PACING. With good pacing you will have proper Tension/Release points, Impact and Climaxes and AEI qualities. In order to achieve this you need a great Concept for the overall show design. But without proper Interpretation of Music ....... everything else crumbles.

If the judges set the priority on Coordination between music and visual, you're forcing the caption in a direction that gives the visual aspects of drum corps the most weight. It devalues the actual content of music being played and how it drives the overall production.

This is all a huge divide in philosophy of design ....... that of which the educated Fan$ subscribe to .. and that of which the DCI judges are fostering. In the end, and as said many times in this thread, I blame the judging community for allowing this shift in design to take place .. and I blame them for rewarding it.

I know this was wordy, but I'm trying to be clear. I know some will argue following my logic will stifle creativity and innovation ......... OH WELL! Find a way to make it work and put some meat back in the horn books ..... that's all I'm saying ...... and it's what the judges should be saying in defense of a diminished number on any corps sheets when they meet in critique. Again, sorry for the length, but I felt it needed to be clarified. Enjoy your day everyone!!!!

[bawker]

It honestly gives me a better understanding of what I've been arguing against for 3 years.

I think what you'll find is that some people (myself included in this somewhat) see this show as more "reactionary" than "revolutionary".

To wit:

2000 Fantasia WGI: "City of Glass"+ 2010 Victor Scholastic A (regional champions/8th place overall): "Reflections" (using mirror props) = 2010 BD.

Now, of course it's not that cut and dried, but tell me that there's not some overlap there to what's on the field right now.

It's no different than 2005 BD being the evolution of 1998 James Logan HS WGI show, or the various other corps that have taken WGI stuff and run with it. It's understandable, but I think is symptomatic of the entirety of the pageantry arts.

Here's where the rub is: DCI used to be in the business of being at the forefront of innovation, creativity and so forth (yes, even back in the days of G bugles and pre-amplification ).

Now, there is such a cross pollination of design staff . . .from marching band to winter guard to winter percussion to drum corps . . .that ultimately, very few people control the design schema for the top groups (that inevitably influence the smaller ones). Look at how many people use Richard Saucedo, Key Poulan or others.

Those folks have made a year-round cottage industry from re-packaging works in one idiom to another . . .so there seems to be a stagnation of ideas as once one has a championship-level concept, it inevitably gets reworked in our various sub-niches until it's beat into the ground.

With BD (IMO), much of their modern output has been visually focused, borne of winter guard conceits that are expanded to long-form show concepts.

So, it could be said that the Blue Devils . . .while bringing something new to drum corps itself . . .are simply better at borrowing from other similar activities and weaving it into their show. Let's face it: drum corps is not high art . . .it's a pastiche of other outside concepts from art, music, and other arenas of design.

Certainly, the Blue Devils are much, much better at creating a truly cohesive whole from these than others, but the disconnect (for me) comes from seeing the obvious roots it pulls from. To use a different corps as an example, it's also why Phantom Regiments show doesn't click for me this year . . .it was done in similar form already in BOA and rings slightly hollow to me.

I still like the show overall. I was a big fan of 1991 (that this show has some nods to), and I like to see Kenton on the field, and, as I said, BDs design team has been at this long enough to make it work.

For all the new rules and new things we have on the field since 2000, drum corps still fundamentally looks back at other pieces of the pageantry arts and takes what it wants, rather than moving ahead without worrying about what has come before.

If we just play with concepts:

-with member numbers:

(70G/40B/40P, we have mikes now for brass, so why do we need 80 horn players? What about 25G/60B/25P/40 vocalists. Why not mike an entire choir? Think there aren't some oratorios, requiems or something else that Crown or Phantom could do with those numbers?)

-electronics:

(Phantom, why not get a piano major and play some bad-### classical piano concertos on the field rather than copy a BOA Grand Champion show? Go for broke and play outside the box.)

-design:

(Where's the controversy? Not talking about manufactured stuff like the Cadets vocals . . .but where are the shows that tackle things like war? What about a Spirit of Atlanta show about the civil rights movement . . .that has a Southern thread that runs through it for sure, and offers a rich musical and thematic background. Instead, Spirit attempts to distance themselves each year from the concept of the "South", the very hook that made them a powerhouse.)

Would some of that suck out loud? Yeah, probably.

. . .but, maybe not. Maybe someone could design a Spirit show that makes people cry, or put Verdi's Dies Irae on the field and make it sound amazing with a choir.

We're entirely too self-contained overall now, content to navel-gaze at each others circuits, crib ideas, write a "deep" show description and somehow think that we're either changing the paradigm or creating some sort of higher "art" in the process.

We don't need that intellectual puffery. It's very nuts and bolts in how to create moments in time for drum corps, no matter what your tools: you create a connection. It's that simple.

Powerful, emotional, cerebral . ..whatever. Or all of them!

Appeal to the humanitarian with a civil rights show . . . that also appeals to the audiophile since you're playing blues . . . that appeals to the intellectual since your visual program has flags with certain imagery on them, or you create a audio/visual moment that draws in someone with (maybe) a recorded phrase behind a wall of sound . . .and so on.

It's often said that people on DCP (and many drum corps fans in general) are afraid of change.

I submit the idea that that fear goes right on up the ranks through the design staff and program coordinators, and is part and parcel of why we now have such vanilla show themes, steeped in whatever safe concept ("life", "colors", "time", "dark into light") is at hand and served to us as something new, when its what we've known all along.

I like plenty about drum corps; but I really dislike the intellectual vanity we pretend we have right now.

[ContraRich77]

You didn't win either, my friend.

Heck, you didn't even beat em on Friday.

Didn't need to win.............beating BD was enough.

Heck, at least the Scouts had a great visual program!